Agnostics's topics - tribe.net

Belief and the Brain study by Sam Harris

Rocky — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 16:59:53 GMT

Belief and the Brain study by Sam Harris

Belief and the Brain
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0007272

Fact Impact
"New study of the brain shows that facts and beliefs are processed in exactly the same way."
http://www.newsweek.com/id/216551

I thought the last two paragraphs had particular significance:

"Harris proves what is self-evident from observing countless faith-versus-reason debates: each side believes firmly in its own truth claims; each side believes that the other's truth claims are absurd. If Harris is saying that Christians and atheists regard their beliefs the same way they regard uncontested facts ("tables and chairs"), it's no wonder that few conceptual bridges are ever built or crossed. (He even noted, with asterisks as to its significance, what he called the "blasphemy reaction": that when atheists disagreed with a Christian belief, or when Christians affirmed one, their pleasure centers lit up—proof that the combatants in the faith-versus-reason wars really do enjoy the fight, equally.)

But for those of us who yearn for resolution, Harris's experiments offer a glimmer of hope. While the brains of believers and nonbelievers do not differentiate between beliefs about God and about mathematics, the believers themselves do, a little. Participants retrieved their religious beliefs and their historical facts from the same place and in the same way, but they showed less certainty when thinking about the religious statements. It took them a little longer to push the button, and a part of the brain having to do with uncertainty, or cognitive dissonance, lit up. If even the strongest believers are a little unsure about God, and the strongest atheists are a teeny bit anxious that they might be wrong, there's room, perhaps, for one person to begin to try to imagine the world view of another, no matter what the brain sees as true. "

I thought this was really interesting. The study makes sense to me because in my own experience the theist vs. atheist debate really does seem endless. Common sense, facts & evidence that actually exist seem to have no effect. That's why I think the mythicist position may do well as a bridge between theism vs. atheism.

What is a Mythicist?
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/mythicist.html

I'm also reminded of this study which is NOT the same:

God on the Brain
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml

* Join the "Solar Mythology ~ Astrotheology" tribe
http://tribes.tribe.net/solarmythologynastrotheology

* Join the "Separation of church and state" tribe
http://separationofchurchstate.tribe.net

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posted in Agnostics - 1 reply

Bible scholar takes Jesus mythicist position

Rocky — Wed, 16 Sep 2009 02:19:44 GMT

Bible scholar takes Jesus mythicist position

Here's an examiner article about Dr. Robert Eisenman, a well-known Bible scholar, who has summarized 'The Christ Conspiracy' in the Huffington Post.

http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-17009-Freethought-Examiner~y2009m9d14-The-Christ-Conspiracy-in-the-Huffington-Post?#commentswww.yahoo.com

So here's a biblical scholar acknowledging that Jesus is a myth i.e. the Mythicist Position.

* What is a Mythicist?
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/mythicist.html

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posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

The Mythicist Position:

Rocky — Tue, 06 Jan 2009 18:09:59 GMT

I have been searching for a well thoughout mythicist position to counter the theist, atheist and Euhemerus or Evemerist positions and was surprised that I was unable to find a good one anywhere. One may find these terms in dictionaries and encyclopedias but no mention of a well thoughtout mythicist position. I thought that was very odd - so I sent D.M. Murdock an e-mail and asked her about it and she organized what I consider the perfect mythicist position that works for me. It will be published in her latest book "Christ in Egypt." It takes us beyond the neverending theist/atheist debate to create a far more interesting position to take. Lets see what you think.

For those who don't know, here's some brief info about Euhemerus.

"Euhemerus was a Greek philosopher who lived about 330-260 BC who is known mainly for his radical interpretations of the Greek myths, which he felt were part of a long historical tradition by which the Gods were originally men, known for some great historical feat or some important social and cultural advancement and later raised to god-hood. This view was current in Greek intellectual circles and was popular in the early Christian period as well, probably as a way of defusing the idea of pagan religion."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euhemerus

http://www.reference.com/browse/Euhemerism

This thesis developed by Euhemerus may be called "euhemerism," "evemerism" or the "evemerist position," defined as follows:

"Evemerism represents the perspective that many of the gods and goddesses of antiquity had been real people, such as kings, queens and other heroes and legendary figures, to whose biographies were later added extraordinary and/or supernatural attributes."

So, the info above may easily be found. However, you won't find any valuable information on a well thoughout mythicist position at all - I find this utterly WEIRD! I have to wonder if it's due to censorship or suppression.

The Mythicist Position:

"Mythicism represents the perspective that many gods, goddesses and other heroes and legendary figures said to possess extraordinary and/or supernatural attributes are not "real people" but are in fact mythological characters. Along with this view comes the recognition that many of these figures personify or symbolize natural phenomena, such as the sun, moon, stars, planets, constellations, etc., constituting what is called "astrotheology." As a major example of the mythicist position, various biblical characters such as Adam and Eve, Satan, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, King David, Solomon & Jesus Christ, among other figures, in reality represent mythological characters along the same lines as the Egyptian, Sumerian, Phoenician, Indian, Greek, Roman and other godmen, who are all presently accepted as myths, rather than historical figures."

- From "Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection" by D. M. Murdock
http://stellarhousepublishing.com/christ-in-egypt-table-of-contents.html

Now, I really like this mythicist position. I'm going to submit it as an entry into dictionaries and encyclopedias.

Join the "Solar Mythology ~ Astrotheology" tribe - http://tribes.tribe.net/solarmythologynastrotheology

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posted in Agnostics - 3 replies

Comforming with Human Nature

Tony — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 11:18:45 GMT

I've recently did a search for proof of God, and it seems that almost nobody has any proof. I know you may find this hard to believe, but the Bible is full of solid proof of the existance of God, but modern ministers seem to think there is no proof.

What constitutes proof in Biblical text, is a prediction of a future event. Prediction of the birth of Jesus, for example, written hudreds or thousands of years before his birth. The Old Testament has a lot of that sort of evidence, but it is somewhat hidden, and there is good reason for that.

Humans tend to behave a certain way, which we call "human nature". The Bible has achieved a very high popularity, because it conforms to human nature.

Churches rarely look at the Old Testament, they are mostly into the New Testament. Churches also rarely follow the word of Jesus, rather they follow the Apostle Paul also called Saul. Paul says the opposite of Jesus. According to the words of Paul, political leaders and religous leaders are all "ordained by God" and it is a sin not to do as they command. According to Paul, even Hitler was "ordained by God". Obviously, such words are well liked by the religious leaders and political leaders, so they promote Christianity. Christianity gets them the power and money that they want, so they promote it.

Think of it as a sort of affiliate marketing program. Give people what they want, and they do the promoting for you.

Some people find that objectionable, claiming that God caused wars. Possibly, however it is really mankind who was looking for an excuse for the wars, and those wars likely would have happened with or without God's help. Anyway, the need justified the means. The need easily justified many times more deaths that resulted from all wars.

The proof of the existence of God, requires lots of reading, and people are rarely willing to spend the time. It was necessary to bury it, 'cause the affiliate marketing strategy wouldn't work so well if it wasn't hidden.

Now that the time as come to reveal the truth, we have a difficult stituation. The highly religious people have been seriously brainwashed with a story that makes no logical sense at all. The non-religious people are resistant to anything that comes from the Bible. Still, it is obviously a whole lot easier than it would be if God didn't use that marketing strategy.

Tony

posted in Agnostics - 1 reply

Skeptic Mangles ZEITGEIST

Rocky — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 03:41:28 GMT

Acharya has responded to Callahan's article -

Skeptic Mangles ZEITGEIST
(and Religious History)
http://stellarhousepublishing.com/skeptic-zeitgeist.html

She mops the floor with him demonstrating that when it comes to the facts surrounding Zeitgeist part 1 he doesn't know what he's talking about after all.

posted in Agnostics - 2 replies

Jesus as the Sun throughout History

Rocky — Mon, 11 May 2009 03:32:00 GMT

Many Agnostics aught to appreciate this:

Jesus as the Sun throughout History

"From the earliest times of Christian history, Jesus Christ has been identified with the sun. This fact is readily demonstrated through the study of ancient texts, including the Bible and works of the early Church fathers, as well as Christian traditions, rituals, architecture and artifacts. From a wide variety of sources, it is clear that associating, identifying and equating Christ with the sun began in ancient times and has continued abundantly over the many centuries since then. Includes many primary sources and quotes from credentialed authorities.

The 37-page ebook available for instant download and printing. Be sure to check out the long excerpt!"

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/jesusasthesun.html

Be sure to check out the long excerpt!
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/jesussunexcerpt.html

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posted in Agnostics - 2 replies

Atheists? I thought this was the Agnostic Tribe

Mon, 13 Apr 2009 03:14:26 GMT

Why is it that every group I join that is supposed to be for agnostics is overrun by atheists? Agnostics are not just shy atheists. Atheism is a faith-based belief. Agnositcism is not. I have nothing agaisnt atheists, I just wish they would quit taking over agnostics' sites as if we are lost and can't find our way. :?r

posted in Agnostics - 53 replies

Why does agnosticism piss off atheists?

VoodooChild — Tue, 18 Oct 2005 18:22:47 GMT

In my experience, when I talk to religious folks and tell them I am agnostic, they are interested to talk to me about religious issues, maybe even try to persuade me to join their religion (good luck!).

But when I label myself as an agnostic to atheists, they get very annoyed. They think either I lack the reasoning skills to see that there is no god, or they think I have some sort of testosterone defficiency that causes me to be too afraid to proclaim my true atheism to the world. Their favorite saying is that "an agnostic is just a gutless atheist" (I believe this comes from Bierce's The Devil's Dictionary). I was just browsing an atheism tribe and these attitudes run rampant.

What's with this pig-headed animostiy between fellow non-believers. As far as I can tell, we're all on the same side as far as opposing the fundamentalist religious fanatics who would restrict OUR liberty in the interest of THEIR god.

Your thoughts?

posted in Agnostics - 213 replies

New Tribe

Sun, 19 Apr 2009 23:35:37 GMT

New tribe started for Agnostics: http://tribes.tribe.net/agnosticsonly

Being certain is stupid, whereas exercising doubt and critical thinking is more intelligent. Agnosticism is simply about being skeptical. Skeptical Atheists are welcome, and we ask that all people be considerate and polite when posting. Labels matter little, it's what's going on between the ears that counts.

True skeptics are skeptical of skeptics, skepticism, and him/herself.

Admitting that you may be wrong shows strength of character. We're only human. The only people who don't make mistakes aren't doing anything at all.

Agnostics may have suspicions about social/scientific/spiritual concepts having more or less validity, but our trick is discussing such topics without an emotional investment in any particular outcome.

So, with an open mind, a warm heart, and a colorful sense of humor, we extend our invitation to anyone inclined towards the Agnostic point of view.

posted in Agnostics - 1 reply

David Mills author of "Atheist Universe"

Rocky — Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:43:30 GMT

David Mills author of "Atheist Universe"

Best-selling author David Mills of "Atheist Universe" has recently written a review of D.M. Murdock's book titled "Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ." Folks here may appreciate his review:

Here are a few of his comments:

"Ms. Murdock is one of only a tiny number of scholars with the richly diverse academic background (and the necessary courage) to adequately address the question of whether Jesus Christ truly existed as a walking-talking figure in first-century Palestine. This question, and many others related to New Testament reliability, are directly confronted and satisfyingly answered in 'Who Was Jesus?' I loved this book. It is absolutely superb in every way, from the eloquence of the writing to the integrity of the scholarship. This book should be required reading in every American classroom....

"My personal recommendation is that 'Who Was Jesus?' should be the first book purchased and studied by anyone, atheist or true believer, who wants to debate Jesus' existence and the Bible's veracity.... You should therefore make this book priority reading even over 'The God Delusion,' 'God is Not Great' and other excellent but, in my opinion, less important books than Murdock's....

"To summarize: D.M. Murdock's 'Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ' is unquestionably one of the finest and most enjoyable books I've ever read."

Check out the full review here -
http://stellarhousepublishing.com/david-mills-wwj.html

and here http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/whowasjesus1.html

Here is Davids website - http://davidmills.net

posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

Atheists want God stricken from inaugural oath

Rocky — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 02:40:03 GMT

Keeping this news in mind, Newdow, FFRF & Coalition Sue to Halt Inaugural Prayers
http://www.ffrf.org/news/2008/inaugurationComplaint.php

This news just in...

Atheists want God stricken from inaugural oath

"WASHINGTON – President-elect Barack Obama wants to conclude his inaugural oath with the words "so help me God," but a group of atheists is asking a federal judge to stop him.

California atheist Michael Newdow sued Chief Justice John Roberts in federal court for an injunction barring the use of those words in the inaugural oath.

Newdow and other atheists and agnostics also want to stop the use of prayers during the inaugural celebration.

Newdow, who lost a Supreme Court battle to get the words "under God" taken out of the Pledge of Allegiance, has failed in similar challenges to the use of religious words and prayers at President George W. Bush's inaugurations.

Roberts' attorney Jeffrey P. Minear filed a document in Newdow's lawsuit saying that Obama wants the words "so help me God" included in his oath of office.

The Justice Department and attorneys general from all 50 states have filed motions at the federal court asking for the lawsuit to be thrown out.

The oath dictated by the Constitution is 35 words long and reads: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of president of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

The National Archives says that George Washington added the words "so help me God" when he took the oath at his 1789 inaugural, and most presidents have used it since. However, some have argued that the first eyewitness account of a president using those words came at President Chester Arthur's inauguration in 1881.

Named in Newdow's lawsuit are Roberts; Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif.; and the two pastors invited to the event, the Rev. Rick Warren and the Rev. Joseph Lowery.

U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton will hear arguments on Thursday."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090115/ap_on_go_ot/obama_under_god

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posted in Agnostics - 5 replies

A New Year’s Greeting For The Ages:

Rocky — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 20:44:18 GMT

A New Year’s Greeting For The Ages: Jefferson’s Jan. 1 Letter To The Danbury Baptists Still Rings True

December 31, 2008

"I love Thomas Jefferson’s New Year’s Day greeting to the Danbury Baptists in part because it drives the Religious Right into such paroxysms of paranoia, ignorance and intemperance.

As I’m sure most of you know, President Jefferson sent a friendly missive to his Baptist admirers in Connecticut on Jan. 1, 1802. He thanked them for their support of him and of religious liberty. He also celebrated the First Amendment’s religious liberty provisions and expressed sympathy for the Baptists’ plight in a state where religious minorities still faced government hostility.

Jefferson famously observed: “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.”

Jefferson’s “wall of separation” metaphor has proved handy over the years as a convenient means of describing the relationship between religion and government in the United States. Religious and political leaders, judges and citizen activists have often cited that protective constitutional barrier as they battle for true religious liberty, and many of us still do.

To the theocracy-minded, however, Jefferson’s wall is a never-ending source of sorrow. It stands between them and their goal of a government that imposes their religion on everyone by force of law.

Recently, Townhall pundit Christopher Merola launched two incendiary columns at the wall and those who support it. His essays are so pathetically mired in inaccuracies, smears and conspiracy theories, they would make a John Birch Society acolyte blush. He rails against Supreme Court’s 1947 Everson opinion that celebrated Jefferson’s wall and he singles out Justice Hugo Black and others who support it for vitriolic abuse.

Merola says Everson was “horribly decided” and charges that “FDR appointee Hugo Black, a member of the Ku Klux Klan, reinterpreted the meaning of the First Amendment of the Constitution.” He says Black took Jefferson’s wall metaphor “completely out of context” and “limited the religious liberty of all Americans.”

Merola claims that thanks to the Supreme Court, little girls are kept from praying in public school and he hints darkly that anti-God conspiracies kept references to religion out of the new Capitol Visitors Center.

Like all good Red-baiters, Merola traces the problem to communists and the ACLU.

“We must not,” he says, “ allow ourselves to buy into the delusion of Roger Baldwin, the founder of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and a member of the Communist Party of the USA, who desired the removal of all references to God from the public square.”

Merola concludes, “Consider what has occurred in the last sixty years or so. The freedom of religion in America has been limited and even demonized in some cases, due to a lie that began with a member of the Communist Party of the USA, who influenced an FDR appointee to the Supreme Court, who was himself a member of the Ku Klux Klan. It’s totally insane! “

What’s insane, of course, is Merola’s take on American history and the protections of our Constitution.

Justice Black was indeed a member of the Ku Klux Klan in his Alabama youth. But Black’s record on the high court shows no hint of racial and religious bigotry. On the contrary, his decisions upheld the civil rights and civil liberties of all Americans. (In the Everson case itself, Black called for high wall of separation, but at the same time he ruled in favor of bus transportation aid to Catholic schools. That’s hardly the work of an anti-Catholic bigot!)

As for the actions of Franklin Roosevelt and the ACLU, I’ll let their records speak for themselves. Right-wingers have made Roosevelt a villain for years, but most Americans still regard him as a great leader who brought us out of the Great Depression and saved the world from fascism in the Second World War.

Say what you will about the ACLU – I don’t agree with them all the time myself — but Americans’ rights would be less firmly established if that organization were never founded.

Put simply, there is no KKK-Communist-ACLU-FDR plot to end religious liberty in America. It’s absurd to think that the far-right KKK has ever worked in tandem with communists and Franklin Roosevelt to restrict civil liberties. Hey, Merola, you left the Masons, the Illuminati, the Bilderbergers, the UN and the Mafia out of your little conspiracy theory. Get out your tin foil hat, buddy, and add some new players to your imaginative and imaginary drama!

Merola, by the way, is described as “the Political Director for Political Media, Inc, a political advertising and public relations firm in Washington, DC.” Isn’t it sad that politics and public relations in the nation’s capital sometimes sink to this level?

Here’s the real scoop. From Jefferson on, thoughtful Americans have understood that true religious liberty means that government stays out of religious matters. That’s not a plot; it’s common sense – and it’s the mandate of our Constitution. The American people have, indeed, built a wall of separation between church and state, and it will take more than the ravings of Religious Right zealots such as Merola to tear it down.

Happy New Year, everybody! 2009 looks brighter on the civil liberties front than 2008, but we’ll still need your help in stalwart defending church-state separation. Stay with us!!"

By Joseph L. Conn

http://blog.au.org/2008/12/31/a-new-years-greeting-for-the-ages-jeffersons-jan-1-letter-to-the-danbury-baptists-still-rings-true/

Join the "Separation of church and state" tribe - http://separationofchurchstate.tribe.net

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posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

Secular Solstice and Equinox Celebrations: Community without the Dogma

Rocky — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 18:29:53 GMT

Secular Solstice and Equinox Celebrations: Community without the Dogma

A great way to create a community without all the dogma is through Secular Solstice & Equinox Celebrations.

I think Freethinkers should challenge traditional religious holiday celebrations. Such as "Christmas" and "Easter" for example. There are perfectly valid and scientific reasons to celebrate the solstices and equinoxes. And especially the winter solstice and the spring equinox ... without any need for religious under pinnings at all. We do *NOT* need religion to celebrate these natural phenomena whatsoever.

Challenge Religious Tradition with Secular Solstice and Equinox Celebrations. Today, we find Freethinkers getting involved in the winter solstice fun:

"ATHEISTS: There has been a recent increase in solstice observances by Atheists in the U.S. For example, The American Atheists and local Atheist groups have organized celebrations for 2000-DEC, including the Great North Texas Infidel Bash in Weatherford TX; Winter Solstice bash in Roselle NJ; Winter Solstice Parties in York PA, Boise ID, North Bethesda MD, and Des Moines IA; Winter Solstice Gatherings in Phoenix AZ and Denver CO: a Year End Awards and Review Dinner (YEAR) in San Francisco, CA."
http://www.religioustolerance.org/winter_solstice.htm

1st Ever Winter Solstice Webcast:

"For the first time ever, the 2007 Winter Solstice illumination of the passage and chamber at Newgrange will be streamed live on the internet.

The webcast and an exhibition at the Brú na Bóinne Visitor Centre celebrates the 40th Anniversary of the re-discovery of the Winter Solstice Phenomenon at Newgrange by Professor O’Kelly in 1967.

The Winter Solstice event from inside the chamber at Newgrange will be broadcast on the mornings of Friday 21st and Saturday 22nd December 2007. If conditions are good the rising sun will illuminate the passage and chamber between 8:58am and 9:15am GMT (Greenwich Mean Time)."

"Each year the winter solstice event attracts much attention at Newgrange. Many gather at the ancient tomb to wait for dawn, as people did 5,000 years ago."
http://www.newgrange.com/webcast.htm

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posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

Freethought Radio Dec 6th: Barbara Walker

Rocky — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 15:08:20 GMT

Freethought Radio Dec 6th: Barbara Walker

Weekend of December 6, 2008
Guest: Author Barbara G. Walker
Topic: The Winter Solstice - The Reason for the Season

"Dan and Annie Laurie will announce various Winter Solstice initiatives of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, air news clips about FFRF Winter Solstice Displays at State Capitols and its new "Reason's Greetings" billboards (including Bill O'Reilly ranting against them), and play a little tongue in cheek seasonal music.

They will also interview scholar and author Barbara G. Walker, about the real meaning of the season and everything they didn't teach you about the origins of "Christmas" in Sunday School! Walker is Freethought Today's columnist and author of the monumental Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets"

"Freethought Radio streams live over Air America. In most locations, the show airs Saturdays, 1-2 p.m. Eastern. Check your local listing to confirm times.

Freethought Radio is streamed live at The Mic 92.1, Madison, Wis., every Saturday from 11 a.m. - noon CDT."

http://www.ffrf.org/radio/

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posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

The Jesus Challenge

Rocky — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 03:30:09 GMT

The Jesus Challenge

Whether you may be a Christian who believes in the biblical Jesus or a freethinking skeptic who believes in a historical Jesus, there are some questions that must be answered:

* Why don't we have the original Gospels in their original language written by the hand of actual eye witnesses of Jesus with the correct authorship and dates on them?

* Why were the Gospels originally written in Greek when Jesus supposedly spoke Aramaic?

* Why do Christians uphold the King James Version of the bible as the inerrant word of God when it contains literally thousands of errors?

* How many Christians can read the bible in its original languages i.e. Hebrew and Greek?

* The Gospels as we have them today did not enter the historical or literary records until toward the end of the second century around 180CE - WHY? Prior to that the Gospels were anonymous. That's 150 years after the supposed death of Jesus!!! How can this be if they're suppose to be written by eye witnesses?

* The canonical Gospels are not considered reliable accounts of history by biblical scholars - WHY?

* The epistles of Paul were written long after Jesus supposedly lived and resurrected from the dead - why do they lack any facts about Jesus' life?

* Why didn't Jesus/God leave behind valid, convincing evidence to alleviate Christians from persecution and ridicule and to convince the rest of the world of his existence?

* Why didn't anyone ever describe what Jesus looked like?

* If Jesus was a "carpenter" why don't we have anything created by his hand?

* Why isn't there any artwork, writings or carvings by the hand of Jesus or anything to demonstrate a historical Jesus?

* Where are the court documents for the trials & crucifixion of Jesus proving a historical Jesus?

* Why doesn't the 10 commandments unmistakably forbid war, tyranny, taking over other people’s countries, slavery, exploitation of workers, cruelty to children, wife-beating, stoning, treating women--or anyone--as chattel or inferior beings, government corruption?

* There are over 20 passages in the bible claiming that Jesus was famed far & wide: Mt 4:23-25, 5:1, 8:1, 8:18, 9:8, 9:31, 9:33, 9:36, 11:7, 12:15, 13:2, 14:1, 14:13, 14:22, 15:30, 19:2, 21:9, 26:55; Mk 1:28, 10:1; Lk 4:14, 4:37, 5:15, 14:25 - Why didn't any contemporary historians write anything about Jesus?

* Why do Christians hold-up the writings of Josephus (37-100 CE), Pliny the Younger (62-113 CE), Tacitus (c. 56-120 CE), Suetonius (c. 69-c. 122 CE), as the very best so-called "evidence" for Jesus when even *IF* we consider their writings authentic they are far too late to be considered eye witnesses as they were all born after Jesus' supposed death?

* If Jesus lived and the bible is true then why the need for Christians destroy all the Pagan temples, writings, history and kill the Pagan Priests?

* If Christianity is the one true faith then, why isn't the world convinced?

* The cross is the most important symbol to Christians representing eternal life - how is that any kind of a new divine revelation when the cross/ankh existed in ancient Egypt symbolizing eternal life?

* The primary passage for the Rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Christians are gleefully awaiting Jesus' 2nd coming & rapture etc - WHY, when Jesus said "...There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (Matthew 16:28 KJV) ? Or in Matthew 24:34 Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Jesus is implying that he would return within the lifetime of his contemporaries, and indeed the Apostles expected Jesus to return before the passing of their generation. Isn't that a failed prophecy? If not, then why did Jesus lead them to believe he would return before their own death? Shouldn't he have said something?

* Why should anyone accept the biblical story of Jesus as historical fact when 1.) There's no valid scientific evidence supporting it and 2.) We have similar concepts via Pagan religions long prior to Christianity.

* Where's the genealogy of Jesus' family tree? Where are his family today? And why didn't anyone in Jesus' immediate family write anything at the time about Jesus at all to pass on? We have no writings from any siblings or descendants claiming any heritage whatsoever.

How in the world can anyone believe the biblical character named Jesus existed when it appears he simply appeared for 30 to 33 years and just vanished with out a trace - and I guess his immediate family disappeared too as there is no trace left, no genealogy of Jesus' family tree to track down.

posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

There's lots of evidence for Jesus! - VIDEO

Rocky — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 00:54:26 GMT

I hear people claiming that there is more evidence for Jesus than there is for Julius Caesar, Socrates, George Washington, Micky Mouse, etc....! This short 3 minute video excerpt of a longer video sums it up nicely:

There's lots of evidence for Jesus! - VIDEO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1uSR1mqGq4

For the full length video go here:

Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ - VIDEO
http://www.livevideo.com/video/1FDF3828A6ED4FFA99BCBA6AF9D3710F/who-was-jesus-fingerprints-of.aspx

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posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

Telling the Truth is Islam Bashing?

Rocky — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 15:21:07 GMT

Telling the Truth is Islam Bashing?

"I am bombarded by hate and threats by the Allah-fearing fanatics, simply because I speak the truth about Islam. If telling the truth about Islam is Islam bashing, then mea culpa.

Question: Does Islam get a pass because it is a religion? Who says Islam is a religion? Millions do? What is the evidence? The words of masses of brainwashed carriers of the Islamic virus, transmitted to them by their parents, are worthless as evidence. What counts is the irrefutable fact that this creed, claimed to be the one and only religion of Allah, has been and continues to be a source of great suffering for non-Muslims as well as the ignorant masses of Muslims themselves.

I will share with you just a few of thousands of horrific things that Muslims do to people of other religions or those without any religion at all..."

Enjoy the full blog
http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/2008/07/telling-truth-is-islam-bashing.html

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posted in Agnostics - 3 replies

“The Bishop and the Analyst”

Wed, 23 Jul 2008 15:42:59 GMT

The following paragraph (with the above title) appears on page 291 of Nassim Taleb’s book The Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable.

“I am most irritated by those who attack the bishop but somehow fall for the securities analyst—those who exercise their skepticism against religion but not against the economists, social scientists, and phony statisticians. Using the confirmation bias, these people will tell you that religion was horrible for mankind by counting deaths from the Inquisition and various religious wars. But they will not show you how many people were killed by nationalism, social science, and political theory under Stalinism or during the Vietnam War. Even priests don’t go to bishops when they fell ill: their first stop is the doctor’s. But we stop by the offices of many pseudo-scientists and ‘experts’ without alternative. We no longer believe in papal infallibility; we seem to believe in the infallibility of the Nobel, though, as we saw in Chapter 17.”

Taleb is *not* *not* *not* endorsing religious belief in any way. He is a thoroughgoing skeptic. His complaint is that too many people who pride themselves on being skeptical of religion are *not* skeptical *enough* about sciences that predict the future or explain the past. Earlier in the book Taleb cites findings showing how *badly* securities analysts actually perform, and how economists fare little better than cabdrivers in predicting the economy, yet “informed” people keep employing securities analysts and economists and invest their own money based on such forecasts. (Taleb worked for years as a “mathematical trader.”)

Taleb argues that “soft areas” such as history and the social sciences—any narrative-dependent study—should be downgraded “to a level slightly above aesthetics and entertainment.” (Page 171)

How is it that we can *know* that the future is fundamentally unpredictable (-and that the past is thereby harder to understand than historians suggest) and yet *still* go to specialists in such prediction (-such as war planners, economists, and securities analysts)? Not only do we go to them, we *pay* them! And we let their judgment influence our behavior. And when the investment fails, the war drags on, or the weather ruins the crop, everyone acts as if their predictions were really sound but no one could have foreseen *what actually happened*. Well, if you can’t do that, then what *are* you predicting? In a word, how things will go if everything goes as expected (-which, for the record, never happens.)

posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

Rocky — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 22:22:25 GMT

Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

July 6, 2008

"JERUSALEM — A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles, especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days.

If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus, since it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was not unique but part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time.

“Some Christians will find it shocking — a challenge to the uniqueness of their theology — while others will be comforted by the idea of it being a traditional part of Judaism,” Mr. Boyarin said.

Ms. Yardeni, who analyzed the stone along with Binyamin Elitzur, is an expert on Hebrew script, especially of the era of King Herod, who died in 4 B.C. The two of them published a long analysis of the stone more than a year ago in Cathedra, a Hebrew-language quarterly devoted to the history and archaeology of Israel, and said that, based on the shape of the script and the language, the text dated from the late first century B.C.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html

Enjoy the entire article.

posted in Agnostics - 2 replies

Weigh in... your opinion, that is

feiruz_al-bnefsagia — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 21:21:00 GMT

Discuss some interesting topics on CreateDebate like these:

http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/Does_modern_Christianity_miss_the_mark
http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/Faith_is_ignorance
http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/Jesus_Christ:_Fact_or_Fiction
http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/Has_evolution_been_scientifically_proved
http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/Would_the_world_be_a_better_place_without_religions
http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/Is_prayer_nonsense
http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/Should_religious_doctrine_be_required_reading_in_high_school
http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/Is_Scientology_a_cult
http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/Are_Mormons_Christians
http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/Do_you_believe_in_God_2
http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/Can_god_be_omniscient_and_omnipotent_Someone_lied
http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/Thoughts_on_child_indoctrination
http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/Are_better_educated_people_less_likely_to_be_religious
http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/Does_belief_in_God_constitute_a_delusion

posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

The Muslim World Throws a FITNA - Again

Rocky — Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:44:35 GMT

March 24, 2008
The Muslim World Throws a FITNA - Again

"Once again, the Muslim world has gone into a state of apoplexy and thrown a fit, or FITNA, as the case may be. What else is new?

For those who haven't heard, "FITNA" is a movie by Dutch politician Geert Wilders exposing the connection between the Islamic holy text the Koran/Quran and the violence found abundantly in the Muslim world for the past 1,400 years or so.

This movie - which, we are constantly reminded, no one has ever seen - is so powerful, apparently, that the entire Muslim religion will be destroyed by it in a heartbeat. At least, that's the impression given by the incredible frantic knee-jerk reaction that had the unprecedented affect of shutting down the film's website before anything of substance was even posted there!"

Read the full blog - http://tbknews.blogspot.com/2008/03/muslim-world-throws-fitna.html

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posted in Agnostics - 1 reply

ZEITGEIST Companion Guide Part 1 e-book

Rocky — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 17:32:04 GMT

I thought folks here would like to know that "The Companion Guide to ZEITGEIST, Part 1" has come out as an e-book.

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/zeitgeist.html

What are your thoughts after reading this e-book?

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posted in Agnostics - 1 reply

"Islam, Christianity, Judaism" VIDEO

Rocky — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 19:39:26 GMT

"Islam, Christianity, Judaism" VIDEO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7nUaOubpNQ

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posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

FRWD: To All My Friends

Rocky — Sat, 22 Mar 2008 14:19:41 GMT

This was sent to me from a friend yesterday - I got a kick out of it. I thought others here might appreciate it too:

FRWD: To All My Friends

To all my friends who in 2007 sent me best 'wishes', chain letters, 'angel' letters or other promises of good luck if I forwarded something,

NONE OF THAT SHIT WORKED!

For 2008, could you please just send money, Grey Goose vodka, chocolate, movie tickets, gasoline vouchers, or airline tickets instead?

Thank you!

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posted in Agnostics - 1 reply

10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On

VoodooChild — Fri, 21 Dec 2007 01:33:30 GMT

http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-must-agree-on.html

posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

video from Pat Condell "Why debate dogma?"

Rocky — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:49:17 GMT

Enjoy the latest video from Pat Condell "Why debate dogma?"

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=aa1_1196174277

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=119389495

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posted in Agnostics - 13 replies

Sunday School for Atheists

Rocky — Mon, 03 Dec 2007 22:51:43 GMT

Sunday School for Atheists

Wednesday, Nov. 21, 2007
By Jeninne Lee-St. John / Palo Alto

Sunday morning at The Children's Program at the Humanist Community of Palo Alto, California.

Kathrin Miller for TIME

On Sunday mornings, most parents who don't believe in the Christian God, or any god at all, are probably making brunch or cheering at their kids' soccer game, or running errands or, with luck, sleeping in. Without religion, there's no need for church, right?

Maybe. But some nonbelievers are beginning to think they might need something for their children. "When you have kids," says Julie Willey, a design engineer, "you start to notice that your co-workers or friends have church groups to help teach their kids values and to be able to lean on." So every week, Willey, who was raised Buddhist and says she has never believed in God, and her husband pack their four kids into their blue minivan and head to the Humanist Community Center in Palo Alto, Calif., for atheist Sunday school.

An estimated 14% of Americans profess to have no religion, and among 18-to-25-year-olds, the proportion rises to 20%, according to the Institute for Humanist Studies. The lives of these young people would be much easier, adult nonbelievers say, if they learned at an early age how to respond to the God-fearing majority in the U.S. "It's important for kids not to look weird," says Peter Bishop, who leads the preteen class at the Humanist center in Palo Alto. Others say the weekly instruction supports their position that it's O.K. to not believe in God and gives them a place to reinforce the morals and values they want their children to have.

The pioneering Palo Alto program began three years ago, and like-minded communities in Phoenix, Albuquerque, N.M., and Portland, Ore., plan to start similar classes next spring. The growing movement of institutions for kids in atheist families also includes Camp Quest, a group of sleep-away summer camps in five states plus Ontario, and the Carl Sagan Academy in Tampa, Fla., the country's first Humanism-influenced public charter school, which opened with 55 kids in the fall of 2005. Bri Kneisley, who sent her son Damian, 10, to Camp Quest Ohio this past summer, welcomes the sense of community these new choices offer him: "He's a child of atheist parents, and he's not the only one in the world."

Kneisley, 26, a graduate student at the University of Missouri, says she realized Damian needed to learn about secularism after a neighbor showed him the Bible. "Damian was quite certain this guy was right and was telling him this amazing truth that I had never shared," says Kneisley. In most ways a traditional sleep-away camp--her son loved canoeing--Camp Quest also taught Damian critical thinking, world religions and tales of famous freethinkers (an umbrella term for atheists, agnostics and other rationalists) like the black abolitionist Frederick Douglass.

The Palo Alto Sunday family program uses music, art and discussion to encourage personal expression, intellectual curiosity and collaboration. One Sunday this fall found a dozen children up to age 6 and several parents playing percussion instruments and singing empowering anthems like I'm Unique and Unrepeatable, set to the tune of Ten Little Indians, instead of traditional Sunday-school songs like Jesus Loves Me. Rather than listen to a Bible story, the class read Stone Soup, a secular parable of a traveler who feeds a village by making a stew using one ingredient from each home.

Down the hall in the kitchen, older kids engaged in a Socratic conversation with class leader Bishop about the role persuasion plays in decision-making. He tried to get them to see that people who are coerced into renouncing their beliefs might not actually change their minds but could be acting out of self-preservation--an important lesson for young atheists who may feel pressure to say they believe in God.

Atheist parents appreciate this nurturing environment. That's why Kitty, a nonbeliever who didn't want her last name used to protect her kids' privacy, brings them to Bishop's class each week. After Jonathan, 13, and Hana, 11, were born, Kitty says she felt socially isolated and even tried taking them to church. But they're all much more comfortable having rational discussions at the Humanist center. "I'm a person that doesn't believe in myths," Hana says. "I'd rather stick to the evidence."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1686828,00.html

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posted in Agnostics - 1 reply

Harpur's "The Pagan Christ" documentary aires this week

Rocky — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 17:58:56 GMT

Harpur's "The Pagan Christ" documentary aires this week

The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation will broadcast on Dec. 6 a documentary based on Tom Harpur's The Pagan Christ.

"THE PAGAN CHRIST Thursday December 6, 2007 at 9pm on CBC-TV
repeating Saturday December 8, 2007 at 10pm ET on CBC Newsworld

So, what if it could be proven that Jesus never existed? What if there was evidence that every word of the New Testament – the cornerstone of Christianity – is based on myth and metaphor? Harpur discovered that the New Testament is wholly based on Egyptian mythology, that Jesus Christ never lived, and that – indeed – the text was always meant to be read allegorically."

http://www.cbc.ca/doczone/paganchrist.html

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posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

The Zeitgeist Movie Wins at the Artivist Film Festival

Rocky — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:48:31 GMT

The Zeitgeist Movie Wins at the Artivist Film Festival

For those who are interested the Zeitgeist Movie has won the top award from the Artivist Film Festival http://www.artivists.org

Acharya appeared on a panel to answer questions about part 1 in front of a packed house at the Egyptian Theater in Hollywood, CA.

The Zeitgeist Movie has gone "viral" with over 6 million views. And it appears that Acharya is going to come out with "A Companion Guide to the Zeitgeist Movie part 1" in the very near future. I'm guessing a couple of weeks or so.

The "Zeitgeist" part 1 video is largely based on Acharya's work (starts @ 9:45 - 35)(Acharya has nothing to do with parts 2 & 3)
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com

http://www.truthbeknown.com/index.html

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posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

Sam Harris at AAI 07 part 1 VIDEOS

Rocky — Sun, 28 Oct 2007 16:04:50 GMT

Sam Harris at AAI 07 part 1 VIDEOS

I had an Idea based off of Sam's video.

Sam Harris at the Atheist Alliance International conference in Washington, DC. 2007 - "Sam Harris at AAI 07 pt1 of 2"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok2oJgsGR6c

We have fire alarms to alert us of the danger of smoke or fire. A brilliant invention that saves lives. We now have a "Homeland Security Advisory System" color code chart to alert us of the dangers of terrorism.
http://www.answers.com/topic/homeland-security-advisory-system

We need a "FAITH" threat alarm of some sort. Of course, who determines what that threat is? It depends of what ones beliefs are but there's another Idea in & of itself - a reasonable code to compare it to. A set of guidelines if you will, which will help us determine when the threat of faith or fundamentalism of any kind has become overly threatening. Be it theistic or atheistic.

Thoughts please?

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posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

Acharya discusses the Jesus Myth - Alan Colmes Radio Show

Rocky — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 13:18:19 GMT

Acharya discusses the Jesus Myth - Alan Colmes Radio Show

Acharya S on the Alan Colmes Radio Show!

"On Tuesday, October 30, 2007, beginning at 11:00 PM EST/8:00 PM PST, Acharya will appear on the Alan Colmes Radio Show out of New York City. Famed for his role as liberal foil to conservative Sean Hannity on FOX's "Hannity & Colmes," Alan's past guests include Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris. This program can be heard via the internet and on various radio stations around the country.

Alan and Acharya will be discussing the Jesus myth and the origins of Christianity, as found in "The Christ Conspiracy," "Suns of God" and her forthcoming book "Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ."

For a list of radio stations near you that will carry the show, please see the Alan Colmes Radio Show. With your ongoing support, we can stir up more major media interest in Acharya's work!

http://AlanColmesRadio.com

http://www.foxnews.com/radio/alancolmes/index.html

http://www.truthbeknown.com/index.html

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posted in Agnostics - 1 reply

Confessions of an Empath

Rocky — Tue, 29 May 2007 18:04:52 GMT

Confessions of an Empath

"It's time for me to come clean about why I do what I do. You see, I'm an agent. Yep, that's right - I am an agent for change.

Seriously, I do what I am doing because I cannot stand the notion of suffering - anywhere in the cosmos, much less here at home on good ol' planet Earth. My motives practically since birth have been the same: I am sickened by violence, injustice and man's inhumanity to man and other creatures.

A little known fact about me is that I spent the first decade of my life becoming physically ill at the mere thought of violence. My family shielded me from violence, but still it managed to creep into my innocent psyche through images in the media, in movies, TV, books and magazines. I recall one Life magazine photo of a bloated corpse being pulled from an African river - a more grotesque sight my child eyes had never seen before.

I didn't vomit at that image, but I did puke all over the upstairs hallway after my older sibling explained to me what a "leper" was, as I was watching the movie "Ben Hur." As it was described to me, leprosy was "where your fingers and other body parts turn black and fall off." Not exactly a clinical definition, but it sufficed to have me running for the bathroom. I didn't make it.

Nor did I make it to the barf bag my family had brought especially for me to the drive-in movie theater, where we watched the scene of a man being hung in front of a jeering mob during the era of the American Wild West. Nope, that time the candy took the hit, as I grabbed the wrong paper sack. Needless to say, my siblings weren't thrilled at losing the candy.

Prior to the Ben Hur incident was a nightmare at grade school - fourth grade, when I was 9 years old. The kids in my class were surrounding one pupil, looking at a photo sent by his penpal and going, "Ooohhhh, grossss!" The children were also laughing, so I peeked over the boy's shoulder to see what they were looking at.

To my horror and shock, the photo was a picture of an American GI holding the severed heads of two Vietnamese soldiers - and smiling. I immediately backed up from this diabolical image, turned around and walked away, choking back tears and vomit. I was incompassionately pursued by the other children, who ridiculed me for not being a "good American," because these slaughtered human beings were "the enemy." Horrified, I looked to the teacher for relief, but she seemed to be joining in the finger wagging!

A Decisive Moment

That moment in my life was decisive. I knew then that I was very different from most people. I had seen an image of two human beings viciously murdered, while the others had seen "the enemy." I've never tortured or killed anyone, and I cannot even stand the sight of such atrocities; yet, I feel sometimes as if I'm all alone on this planet.

At some point during my first decade on this planet, it was suggested to me that, in order to survive in the world, I would need to become "inured" to its horrors. If by "survival" is meant that I couldn't go on barfing, I agree. And for many years I managed to push hideous atrocities out of my mind. A couple of decades later, I finally woke up, once and for all. I will never become inured to the horrors of this world. I am simply too emphathetic not to feel the evil that men do. Indeed, my empathy was the mechanism by which I would become sickened and vomit as a child. I would actually feel the terror, pain and suffering of individuals as they were tortured and killed. I am still feeling the suffering of my brothers and sisters globally, and I am compelled to expose this suffering and help it to heal.

Unfortunately, there are some very evil characters on this planet, and their sickness is infectious enough to have spread far and wide to what amounts to millions of people. These loathsome characters have created their clones and drones, desensitizing them to a mind-numbing level of violence against other living and breathing human beings. The crimes of these evil creatures are beyond comprehension, including but not limited to:

* torture of all manner
* floggings, lashings and beatings
* beheadings
* slitting throats
* stonings
* hangings from cranes and other devices
* hacking off hands and feet
* rape - gang and individual of both genders
* child abuse, including rape and sodomy
* animal abuse
* "honor killings"
* female and male genital mutilation
* depriving women of air and sunlight, and subjecting them to sweltering heat beneath black or other dark-colored clothing
* acid attacks on women's faces and other body parts
* slavery
* genocide

Most sickening, these atrocities and crimes against humanity are being committed by entire groups of people in the name of God! In other words, these horrors are unleashed as a major part of "religion." Is it any wonder there are "angry atheists" speaking out against the very notion of an all-powerful, good and merciful God in charge of everything? If the scenario just listed is "godly," what the hell is satanic?!

Every day, day in and day out, these vile thugs are grabbing people - including children of both genders - against their will and doing heinous and evil things to them. In all too many places, these montrous tyrants get away with this despicable behavior all the time, because they are allowed and commanded to do so by the governing authorities, both political and religious. Psychotically, these sadists believe themselves correct and righteous in seizing other living, breathing beings against their will and beating, torturing and murdering them. These savages have such power that large groups of people are under their dominion - and they are not content to stop there.

Who is stopping these constant abuses against innocent human beings? Who can these voiceless victims turn to for respite and salvation? As a person of empathy, I am feeling their pain and suffering - and I am outraged by their persecutors' audacity and megalomania. This unmitigated hubris of vilely destroying God's creatures is absolutely ungodly.

And it must be stopped, because it's making not only me but all of us sick. If there has ever been any creator, it seems "he" has long abandoned his flawed creation to its own devices, much to the dismay of all rational and compassionate human beings. That is to say, all true human beings. I can only fervently hope that there are enough of us true human beings to stand up to these sadistic bullies wherever they may be found."

a comment -

"Anonymous said...

Excellent blog!

Thanks so much for sharing. It gives me a better understanding of why you write to expose religion for what it really is. It can be a place for murderers & worse to hide out in the name of their god & particular holy book. The point of your books is not about being anti-religion, your books are much more about actually being human.

Your work is at the top of the list of some of the greatest gifts to humanity I've ever seen. Keep up the great works!"

http://tbknews.blogspot.com/2007/05/confessions-of-empath.html

posted in Agnostics - 2 replies

Liberals (and freethinkers) need to stop respecting Islam!! (Sam Harris video)

Rocky — Fri, 28 Sep 2007 16:48:16 GMT

Liberals (and freethinkers) need to stop respecting Islam!! (Sam Harris video)

"Sam Harris nails it in this video. The problem with so many liberals is that they get so tied up in opposing Christianity and oppression in America, that they actually start to defend Islam and oppression in the middle east (which are actually a lot worse). These liberals need to rise above this dichotomy though and oppose both Christianity AND Islam, and western oppression AND middle eastern oppression.

I've made this plea to fellow atheists before, and I'll make it again. You've managed to avoid being suckered in by other types of harmful ideals., So please don't be suckered into political correctness and respecting religions that are actually much worse than Christianity just because you have the misguided notion that foreign cultures are quaint and should be preserved or that backward countries should have the right to govern their countries however they see fit. The truth of the matter is, Islam is a bigger threat to rationality than Christianity is, and countries like Iraq and Iran are far more oppressive than America is. So wake up, atheists, and stop sticking up the bad guys."

"Sam Harris on Tucker" VIDEO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBOGQckaF0U

"The End of Liberalism?" -

Head-in-the-Sand Liberals: Western civilization really is at risk from Muslim extremists.
By Sam Harris
http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-end-of-liberalism/

* This comes from a person on myspace named "crocoduck" http://www.myspace.com/crocoduck

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posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

Militant Agnostic

RoseSignet — Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:38:38 GMT

http://scienceblogs.com/corpuscallosum/2007/04/you_dont_either.php

Great Bumper Sticker...

posted in Agnostics - 5 replies

Ever hear of Pat Condell? Check out his VIDEOS

Rocky — Thu, 31 May 2007 06:08:32 GMT

Ever hear of Pat Condell ?? Check out his VIDEOS

"The Trouble With Islam" VIDEO
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=418_1176494781

http://www.youtube.com/patcondell

His 'myspace'
http://www.myspace.com/patcondell

posted in Agnostics - 1 reply

No atheists in the foxholes, eh?

VoodooChild — Tue, 29 May 2007 17:55:37 GMT

A response from retired Master Sergeant Gid L. White. After Katie Couric declared that there were no atheists in foxholes on a TV newscast:

Dear Miss Couric,

While there is nothing wrong highlighting in the program the role that religion has played in the American Armed Forces, I find your mindless parading of that silly old aphorism, “there are no Atheists in foxholes,” to be thoughtless and downright offensive to the families of uncountable numbers of atheists, and I include Agnostics, who gave their lives wearing the uniform of the American Armed Forces. Yes, there are, and always have been Atheists, both draftees and volunteers on the battlefield, many of whom bare the scars of war or are ironically buried below white crosses in battlefields throughout the world.

I’m in a position to know. After initially being nominated to WestPoint, I enlisted in the United States Army as a Private in 1964, where I served 21 years on active duty retiring as a Master Sergeant in 1985. As one who is not shy about proclaiming my firm non-belief in any supernatural nonsense, religious or otherwise, I became aware of literally thousands of fellow Atheists in uniform all over the world. Some were overt and public about their beliefs. Some were not. But all were willing to lay down their lives if necessary. Many did.

The military is fully aware of the existence of Atheists in uniform, and in fact makes specific allowances for us in the oath enlistment. In the oath there is a clear choice. We can swear before God, the Great Pumpkin, or whatever, to serve our country. Or we can affirm the oath. There are no bibles or other sacred books used in this oath unlike for some political offices. The only item required to be present is the American Flag. All my reenlistments were affirmed as were hundreds of others I witnessed. Under affirmed oath I personally encountered dozens of soldiers wearing purple hearts bronze stars and at least five silver stars. Among them were Special Forces, Rangers, and Intelligence Officers, Artillerymen, Tank Crewmen, Cooks, Paratroopers, Combat Medics, Truck Drivers, and Infantrymen. There are no atheists in foxholes? I beg to differ.

Preachers may blather on about serving for “God and country,” but as any number of combat studies have proven, that is “pure crap,” to use a traditional military term. Soldiers certainly do enlist for patriotic motives and many of them no doubt have deeply held religious beliefs, but this is not why in the heat of combat they risk their lives. They risk their lives for their fellow soldiers, to not let their comrades down, and to secure the survival of their buddies and themselves by getting the job done as rapidly and brutally as possible.

Broadcasting a feel good puff-piece on religion is all well and good, but perpetuating the nonsense that only religious zealots defend their country is not only offensive but demonstrably wrong. Most Atheists and Agnostics in uniform get stuck with the Army’s famous euphemism of “no religious preference” on their dog tags. But mine simply said “Atheist,” after some initial arguments with my superiors. I am offended by your comments primarily in memory of the silent masses of non believers who did not make it back to object to your treatment of their deeply help beliefs. I believe you and NBC owe them an apology.

Gid L. White

Master Sergeant, United States Army (Ret)

http://freeforum.wordpress.com/2007/05/28/katie-couric-no-atheists-in-foxholes/

posted in Agnostics - 4 replies

Mom Flips Out When Son Says He's an Atheist - VIDEO

Rocky — Mon, 14 May 2007 15:45:15 GMT

Mom Flips Out When Son Says He's an Atheist - VIDEO

http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2007/05/13/video-mom-flips-out-when-son-says-hes-an-atheist/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faxiomsun.com%2Fhome%2Fvideo%2Fmom_flips_out_when_son_says_hes_an_atheist.html&frame=true

http://tinyurl.com/38k2l6

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posted in Agnostics - 1 reply

a new tribe, dysfunction junction

RusticRambler — Sun, 13 May 2007 13:13:55 GMT

I started a new tribe for people to talk and complain about what is wrong with and in the world today. This is always a popular subject that seems to vear off thread in many other tribes, so I thought this would be a good place to focus those thoughts.

Everyone welcome to come complain and discuss what bothers you about what is going on these days, ranting and whining allowed:

http://tribes.tribe.net/dysfunctionjunction

posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

Study: Atheists Most Discriminated Minority

Rocky — Sat, 15 Apr 2006 16:19:04 GMT

Study: Atheists Most Discriminated Minority

University of Minnesota study of 2006: (Would you want your daughter to marry an Atheist?)

University of Minnesota researchers conducted a telephone survey of over 2,000 households in early 2006. 7 They found that:

"...Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in 'sharing their vision of American society.' Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry."

Lead researcher, Penny Edgell, noted that Atheists:

"...offer a glaring exception to the rule of increasing social tolerance over the last 30 years....It seems most Americans believe that diversity is fine, as long as every one shares a common 'core' of values that make them trustworthy—and in America, that 'core' has historically been religious....Americans believe they share more than rules and procedures with their fellow citizens—they share an understanding of right and wrong. Our findings seem to rest on a view of atheists as self-interested individuals who are not concerned with the common good'." 6,7

It would appear that Atheists have a major public relations job ahead of them.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist5.htm

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However, you'll be glad to know this bit of info -

"The Secular Coalition for America is the new (first one ever!) Washington-based lobbying organization for atheists, humanists, freethinkers, and other nontheistic Americans. Our mission is to increase the visibility and respectability of nontheistic viewpoints in the United States and to protect and strengthen the secular character of our government as the best guarantee of freedom for all."

http://www.secular.org/

http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/ath1.htm

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"Wake Up America" Ad Campaign Runs on National Air America

FFRF Takes Message to Combat Theocracy to the Air Waves

April 3, 2006

The Freedom From Religion Foundation, a national watchdog group whose members are atheists and agnostics working to keep church and state separate, is taking its "Wake up America" message to national airwaves.

Beginning today for three months, the Foundation will run a series of paid radio advertisements (read ad transcripts here) warning of the religious right's assault on America. These are scheduled during four nationally syndicated "Air America" talkshows.

In one ad, comedian Julia Sweeney, the Saturday Night Live alum ("Adrogynous Pat") whose new play is "Letting Go of God," identifies herself as an atheist and asks others to "join me and the Freedom From Religion Foundation in waking up America to the growing dangers of theocracy." Her spot will air daily for 12 weeks during the "Al Franken Show."

Additionally, the Foundation is airing paid "voice endorsements" recorded by three Air America hosts to run daily during their programs. Janeane Garofalo, also an comedian, actress and SNL alum who co-hosts "The Majority Report," asks: "Are you tired of right-wing politicians who desperately want to impose their religious beliefs on the rest of us? I know I am! That's why I'm asking you to support the Freedom From Religion Foundation." Garafalo signs off: "Proud to be an atheist!"

Laura Flanders, RadioNation host, asks: "Are you as alarmed as I am about the religious right's assault on our secular government and private lives?"

Mike Malloy, of the Mike Malloy Show, notes: "I fully support the Freedom From Religion Foundation as it takes the lead in challenging the growing threat from the religious right in the United States."

"We have never been in greater danger of losing our secular republic,"says Foundation co-president Annie Laurie Gaylor.

"Theocrats are in charge of our two branches of government, and just gained a narrow foothold on the third--the U.S. Supreme Court. We witness daily assaults by religionists seeking to unite church and state, such as the flood of federal faith-based funding to support proselytizing religious groups." The dangers to civil liberties are demonstrated by South Dakota's religion-instigated ban on abortion and religion-led efforts to bar same-sex marriage and civil unions, Gaylor noted.

The ads invite sympathetic listeners to phone or visit ffrf.org, the Foundation's website.

http://www.ffrf.org/news/2006/airamerica.php

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http://www.au.org/site/PageServer

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Please join & become a member of these great organizations.

posted in Agnostics - 52 replies

Secular Earth

Casey — Sun, 06 May 2007 13:36:32 GMT

Hello all,

A new on line community called Secular Earth can be found at www.secularearth.com. .All like minded individuals are welcome to come and contribute. SE is a member driven community with forums, chat room, member blogs, book store, article database and much more to come. Members may post links to their related blogs or websites they recommend, contribute to our quotations database and add events to our interactive calendar. We aim to use all web 2.0 has to offer to empower our community and enlighten our world.

All this because at SE we agree with Carl Sagan when he said: "We are on the eve of discovering that nothing should be done for the sake of gods, but all for the sake of man."

posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

A Brief History of Disbelief - Tonight on PBS

Rocky — Fri, 04 May 2007 15:38:31 GMT

A Brief History of Disbelief - Tonight on PBS

PBS will be airing A Brief History of Disbelief starting Fri. 5/4. Two of our coalition members, the American Humanist Association and the Institute for Humanist Studies, are among the sponsors of this documentary. Don't miss it!

Also be sure to check out the, "Find an Atheist, Humanist, Freethinker Elected Official" Contest, launched to explore visibility and respectability challenges for nontheists in public office.

http://www.secular.org

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posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

Earth's Greatest Lawsuit

Rocky — Fri, 04 May 2007 00:05:14 GMT

Earth's Greatest Lawsuit

Become a plaintiff in the greatest mass filing of lawsuits the earth has ever witnessed.

Play your part. Register here so that we can prepare and file a lawsuit just for you against the religion, church, affiliated organization, religious leader, or televangelist of your choice.

Change our world. Bring peace on earth. End religious conflicts and terrorism. Join us as we take away the one thing that is truly the lifeblood of earth's organized religions.

Their money supply.

We need you

Have you ever purchased a religious product, or service?

Have you ever paid a "tithe", sowed a "faith seed", or given a "love gift" to a church, ministry, religious leader, or televangelist?

Have you ever donated money to a church, religion, or televangelist? To a charity or organization owned by or affiliated with a church or ministry?

Have you ever lost money in a religious investment scheme?

Have you missed out on an inheritance, because a parent or relative gave money or bequeathed an estate to a church, religion, ministry, or televangelist?

Do you feel that a particular religion, church, or televangelist has made any false, misleading, or deceptive claims or representations? Statements that may have influenced your decision to purchase a product or service ... or to give your money?

Do you feel that you have been misled or deceived by more than one religion, church, ministry, or televangelist? More ...
Get involved

Register to become a plaintiff. Strictly confidential. Completely free.

Volunteer legal expertise in consumer protection, trade information, or advertising practices laws in your country.

Help us translate this website into your native language.

Contribute content for our Shame Files (stories, video, other incriminating evidence).

Spread the Word. http://www.earthsgreatestlawsuit.org/index.php

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posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

Atheism: Contemporary Rates and Patterns

feiruz_al-bnefsagia — Tue, 01 May 2007 19:28:50 GMT

From The Cambridge Companion to Atheism Edited By Michael Martin http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/atheism.html

Assessing rates of belief or disbelief among large populations is extremely difficult. Determining what percentage of a given society believes in God – or doesn’t -- is fraught with methodological difficulties, most importantly: 1) low response rates, 2) non-random samples, 3) adverse political or cultural climates, and 4) problematic cross-cultural terminology. A brief discussion of each is warranted before presenting an accumulation of statistics concerning rates and patterns of atheism worldwide...

...Any assessment of the rates and patterns of atheism worldwide must keep the above methodological limitations in mind. That said, the enterprise isn’t completely futile. We can make reliable estimates( iii ). Though methodological flaws hamper all sociological inquiries, in the words of Robert Putnam (2000:23): “we must make do with the imperfect evidence that we can find, not merely lament its deficiencies.”

Below is a presentation of the findings of the most recently available surveys concerning rates of atheism, agnosticism, and non-belief in God in various countries worldwide( iv )...

{Continued at above URL}

posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

Acharya on the Colbert Report

Rocky — Wed, 18 Apr 2007 21:32:35 GMT

Acharya on the Colbert Report

Help try to get Colbert to have Acharya as a guest on the "Colbert Report".

I've started a thread on the Colbert message board. Please, feel free to join & post saying you would also like to see her on the show for an interview. Here's the thread to post in -

http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/the_colbert_report/message_board.jhtml?c=v&t=10794

http://tinyurl.com/36dew8

Here's my post:

Colbert should Interview Acharya S

G'day Colbert,

I recommend having Acharya on as a guest for an interview. She explains how the beloved Jesus of the bible never existed.

I'll share her links that I'd think folks would really enjoy.

Videos:

"Easter - Christian or Pagan?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNhGQYo4yZs

"The Reason for the Season", Christmas VIDEO -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THykKjIS1Ks

Other videos - http://www.truthbeknown.com/videos.html

Her books:

Who Was Jesus?
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/whowasjesus.html

Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled
http://www.truthbeknown.com/sunsofgod.htm

The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold
http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ.htm

Her 'myspace' - http://www.myspace.com/acharyas

Let me know what you think...

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posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

Gwynne Dyer

rogrlee — Tue, 27 Mar 2007 19:54:25 GMT

Gwynne Dyer always has thought-provoking ideas in his columns. He's been a military analyst and writer for decades and his book "Future Tense" is a sobering and thorough examination of the current US/Iraq conflict.

Here's an item about goodness and godliness:

http://www.straight.com/article-76688/in-sin-we-trust-nastiness-is-next-to-godliness-study-says

posted in Agnostics - 1 reply

Enjoy the "Easter - Christian or Pagan?" - VIDEO

Rocky — Sun, 11 Mar 2007 03:49:50 GMT

Enjoy the "Easter - Christian or Pagan?" - VIDEO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNhGQYo4yZs

http://www.truthbeknown.com/easter.htm

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posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

Religious Decline in U.S. Follows Europe

VoodooChild — Mon, 26 Feb 2007 20:46:08 GMT

"A new survey in the U.S. shows that the number of 18-25 year olds who are atheist, agnostic or nonreligious has increased from 11 percent in 1986 to 20 percent today. Meanwhile a survey of the United States and the five largest countries in Western Europe reveals that religious belief continues to plummet in Europe, with Italy being the only country with a majority believing in any form of God or supreme being. And even in these overwhelmingly godless countries, the young are still significantly less religious than their elders."

http://www.humaniststudies.org/enews/?id=281&article=0

posted in Agnostics - 1 reply

Why be an agnostic when you can be an atheist?

shazlaw — Mon, 27 Nov 2006 12:40:02 GMT

Why don't agnostics get over themselves and just plead.....Atheist?

posted in Agnostics - 77 replies

Agnostic and atheist resources for children ?

housemonkey — Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:09:30 GMT

My daughter is interested in atheism. She is 13 years old and I would like to point her towards some information to help her understand atheism and agnosticism . A quick search of my local library and the internet did not yield any results. I would appreciate any links or book reccomendations. Thanks.

posted in Agnostics - 5 replies

agnosticism and anti-religion

cortelyou — Tue, 06 Feb 2007 20:33:51 GMT

Hi all,

How many here have anti-religious sentiments?

Just curious.

posted in Agnostics - 7 replies

Women vs Men?

shazlaw — Thu, 28 Dec 2006 01:06:17 GMT

Does anyone know where I can get statistics on the breakdown of men/women who are agnostics and atheists?
I assume that the percentage of men, outweigh the women. (without seeing definite numbers, that is an assumption on my part)
I have found statistics by country, but can't find any info on the breakdown of males and females.
I also found that although there were stats on the number of Atheists in a particular country, the term agnostic was not listed. What listing are agnostics under?
And finally, why are women so under-represented in the Atheist/Agnostic tribes? (Having just looked at the membership, that may be a flawed view)
I'm sure someone will set me straight with that one.
Just wondering.....
Thanks

posted in Agnostics - 7 replies

JOIN THIS THREAD!

DVDBurner — Mon, 05 Feb 2007 08:20:55 GMT

http://tribes.tribe.net/politicsreligionothers

Just want a beyond heated intelligent political and otherwise debate.

this tribe is not for the meek.
So if you know you are not going to be able to handle it, DONT JOIN!

Ok folks, thanks and let the games begin.

posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

... a friendly reminder

John Michael — Thu, 28 Dec 2006 03:44:30 GMT

... to check ourselves, to step back and expand the horizons our lenses are focusing on. Let me explain:

I am not a believer in god in any way, and pretty well fit the definition of "atheist". Religion makes no sense to me; I vastly prefer the light of reason over the light of god. I think ID is a complete and total farce, and I am dismayed that a few people in positions of power consider their intolerant perspectives as somehow more correct than the general populace.

That being said, i've also a lot of friends who are believers. We think differently, they and I, but we're still close. My experiences with them, combined with a lot of the stuff I read here, make me feel the need to write the following:

Most believers, at least in my experience, don't take themselves anywhere near as seriously as we unbelievers seem to take ourselves. I'm speaking to myself as well as everyone else here -- most believers I know respond to my atheism with "oh ok, no problem as long as you don't try to force it on me", and when asked if they think i'm going to be punished for my lack of faith in god, they answer with "it's not my call, and I don't pretend to know how god thinks." Yet, so many of us nonbelievers are _convinced_ that believers generally hate us, consider us infidels, and would rather see the streets run red with our blood than interface with us.

Really -- we should get over ourselves. We're humans, first and foremost. Sometimes I think they understand this better than we do.

Regards,

John, 'nuff said

Falling You - exploring the beauty of voice and sound
http://www.fallingyou.com

posted in Agnostics - 5 replies

10 Myths -- and 10 Truths -- About Atheism

Rocky — Sun, 24 Dec 2006 12:44:59 GMT

10 Myths -- and 10 Truths -- About Atheism

Sam Harris's Christmas Eve op-ed in The Los Angeles Times:

December 24, 2006
The Los Angeles Times

SEVERAL POLLS indicate that the term “atheism” has acquired such an extraordinary stigma in the United States that being an atheist is now a perfect impediment to a career in politics (in a way that being black, Muslim or homosexual is not). According to a recent Newsweek poll, only 37% of Americans would vote for an otherwise qualified atheist for president.

Atheists are often imagined to be intolerant, immoral, depressed, blind to the beauty of nature and dogmatically closed to evidence of the supernatural.

Even John Locke, one of the great patriarchs of the Enlightenment, believed that atheism was “not at all to be tolerated” because, he said, “promises, covenants and oaths, which are the bonds of human societies, can have no hold upon an atheist.”

That was more than 300 years ago. But in the United States today, little seems to have changed. A remarkable 87% of the population claims “never to doubt” the existence of God; fewer than 10% identify themselves as atheists — and their reputation appears to be deteriorating.

Given that we know that atheists are often among the most intelligent and scientifically literate people in any society, it seems important to deflate the myths that prevent them from playing a larger role in our national discourse.

1) Atheists believe that life is meaningless.

On the contrary, religious people often worry that life is meaningless and imagine that it can only be redeemed by the promise of eternal happiness beyond the grave. Atheists tend to be quite sure that life is precious. Life is imbued with meaning by being really and fully lived. Our relationships with those we love are meaningful now; they need not last forever to be made so. Atheists tend to find this fear of meaninglessness … well … meaningless.

2) Atheism is responsible for the greatest crimes in human history.

People of faith often claim that the crimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were the inevitable product of unbelief. The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship. Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and nationalistic dogma run amok. There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.

3) Atheism is dogmatic.

Jews, Christians and Muslims claim that their scriptures are so prescient of humanity’s needs that they could only have been written under the direction of an omniscient deity. An atheist is simply a person who has considered this claim, read the books and found the claim to be ridiculous. One doesn’t have to take anything on faith, or be otherwise dogmatic, to reject unjustified religious beliefs. As the historian Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-71) once said: “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”

4) Atheists think everything in the universe arose by chance.

No one knows why the universe came into being. In fact, it is not entirely clear that we can coherently speak about the “beginning” or “creation” of the universe at all, as these ideas invoke the concept of time, and here we are talking about the origin of space-time itself.

The notion that atheists believe that everything was created by chance is also regularly thrown up as a criticism of Darwinian evolution. As Richard Dawkins explains in his marvelous book, “The God Delusion,” this represents an utter misunderstanding of evolutionary theory. Although we don’t know precisely how the Earth’s early chemistry begat biology, we know that the diversity and complexity we see in the living world is not a product of mere chance. Evolution is a combination of chance mutation and natural selection. Darwin arrived at the phrase “natural selection” by analogy to the “artificial selection” performed by breeders of livestock. In both cases, selection exerts a highly non-random effect on the development of any species.

5) Atheism has no connection to science.

Although it is possible to be a scientist and still believe in God — as some scientists seem to manage it — there is no question that an engagement with scientific thinking tends to erode, rather than support, religious faith. Taking the U.S. population as an example: Most polls show that about 90% of the general public believes in a personal God; yet 93% of the members of the National Academy of Sciences do not. This suggests that there are few modes of thinking less congenial to religious faith than science is.

6) Atheists are arrogant.

When scientists don’t know something — like why the universe came into being or how the first self-replicating molecules formed — they admit it. Pretending to know things one doesn’t know is a profound liability in science. And yet it is the life-blood of faith-based religion. One of the monumental ironies of religious discourse can be found in the frequency with which people of faith praise themselves for their humility, while claiming to know facts about cosmology, chemistry and biology that no scientist knows. When considering questions about the nature of the cosmos and our place within it, atheists tend to draw their opinions from science. This isn’t arrogance; it is intellectual honesty.

7) Atheists are closed to spiritual experience.

There is nothing that prevents an atheist from experiencing love, ecstasy, rapture and awe; atheists can value these experiences and seek them regularly. What atheists don’t tend to do is make unjustified (and unjustifiable) claims about the nature of reality on the basis of such experiences. There is no question that some Christians have transformed their lives for the better by reading the Bible and praying to Jesus. What does this prove? It proves that certain disciplines of attention and codes of conduct can have a profound effect upon the human mind. Do the positive experiences of Christians suggest that Jesus is the sole savior of humanity? Not even remotely — because Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims and even atheists regularly have similar experiences.

There is, in fact, not a Christian on this Earth who can be certain that Jesus even wore a beard, much less that he was born of a virgin or rose from the dead. These are just not the sort of claims that spiritual experience can authenticate.

8) Atheists believe that there is nothing beyond human life and human understanding.

Atheists are free to admit the limits of human understanding in a way that religious people are not. It is obvious that we do not fully understand the universe; but it is even more obvious that neither the Bible nor the Koran reflects our best understanding of it. We do not know whether there is complex life elsewhere in the cosmos, but there might be. If there is, such beings could have developed an understanding of nature’s laws that vastly exceeds our own. Atheists can freely entertain such possibilities. They also can admit that if brilliant extraterrestrials exist, the contents of the Bible and the Koran will be even less impressive to them than they are to human atheists.

From the atheist point of view, the world’s religions utterly trivialize the real beauty and immensity of the universe. One doesn’t have to accept anything on insufficient evidence to make such an observation.

9) Atheists ignore the fact that religion is extremely beneficial to society.

Those who emphasize the good effects of religion never seem to realize that such effects fail to demonstrate the truth of any religious doctrine. This is why we have terms such as “wishful thinking” and “self-deception.” There is a profound distinction between a consoling delusion and the truth.

In any case, the good effects of religion can surely be disputed. In most cases, it seems that religion gives people bad reasons to behave well, when good reasons are actually available. Ask yourself, which is more moral, helping the poor out of concern for their suffering, or doing so because you think the creator of the universe wants you to do it, will reward you for doing it or will punish you for not doing it?

10) Atheism provides no basis for morality.

If a person doesn’t already understand that cruelty is wrong, he won’t discover this by reading the Bible or the Koran — as these books are bursting with celebrations of cruelty, both human and divine. We do not get our morality from religion. We decide what is good in our good books by recourse to moral intuitions that are (at some level) hard-wired in us and that have been refined by thousands of years of thinking about the causes and possibilities of human happiness.

We have made considerable moral progress over the years, and we didn’t make this progress by reading the Bible or the Koran more closely. Both books condone the practice of slavery — and yet every civilized human being now recognizes that slavery is an abomination. Whatever is good in scripture — like the golden rule — can be valued for its ethical wisdom without our believing that it was handed down to us by the creator of the universe.

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/10-myths-and-10-truths-about-atheism1/

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posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

Say no to Jeebus Day

shazlaw — Thu, 21 Dec 2006 03:36:41 GMT

Since declaring myself an existentialist atheist, I have became aware of the weird annual discussion among atheists about how they should celebrate Christmas.
Oh, no, they don't call it Christmas. They talk about celebrating the solstice. Or perhaps the new year. Or simply the holiday season. It's all so generic that it really doesn't matter. And it's all pagan in origin, right? Co-opted by the Christians.
Why do some people have the need to veil their celebrations in politically correct talk. I admit to having a fetish for blinky lights and cheesy Xmas music.

Some of my friends give solstice gifts and say approving things about pre-Christian, pagan festivals. Some of them speak fondly of Wicca (a new, fake-old religion that manages to be even sillier than Christianity and Judaism). Since all of these things are not Christianity, they are able to pretend that none of these things are religious.

What I find Atheists and Agnostics seem unwilling to ask is not how they can celebrate Christmas without having it look as though they're celebrating Christmas but why they should even try - indeed, why they should even want to try.

posted in Agnostics - 4 replies

It took abit...but I finally made it here !

god — Wed, 13 Dec 2006 02:29:32 GMT

How ya'll doing !?

posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

Immortality, compassion and love for all those who want to hear

Dr Dominic — Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:41:42 GMT

hello
The first chapter of my book after 25 years of research has within it the keys to IMMORTALITY IN PREPARATION FOR ASCENSION.
FROM CHAPTER ONE TAKE X the healing factor , apply it to the blood , body and brain, this will make the human body all positive and Immortal, once you have read the book , contact me for the 3 ways it will be done…2 slow , 1 on mass.....(via a pyramid using the Sun and Sirius energy on the dog days).... the the pyramids will be opened later on FOR LIGHT WORKERS,I hope you understand what I am saying...................Tell all your light worker friends to get the book as I am a Light Worker myself, who has been presented now with the understandings of immortality ,which I must give to other light workers. This is the information you have to pass on for the good of all light workers.
in the light
Dominic
I recommend my book ORMUS FROM AUTHORHOUSE
www.authorhouse.com/BookStor...alog.aspx
ORMUS, ORME....WHITE GOLD ...The manna, the white powder of gold, is the food, the light, one takes into their body. It is the FOOD OF THE GODS. A modern day Rabbi might tell you that no one has known how to make the manna, the white powder of Gold, since the destruction of the Temple of Solomon. The technique is, supposedly, a lost art or lost knowledge. But others argue that when the high priests left the Temple (when it was destroyed), the took the secret out into the desert and organized a commune called Qumrun. There, they became the Essenes. Eventually, the white powder was used to nourish a woman named Mary, and eventually, she gave birth to a man named Jesus.
These gifts include: perfect telepathy, the ability to know good and evil when it’s present, and to project thoughts into another person’s mind. There is also the ability to levitate, or to walk on water. By excluding all external magnetic fields (including the Earth’s gravity), the white powder of gold takes one beyond the four dimensional space time continuum, and the individual becomes a fifth dimensional being. They can literally think where they would like to be, and go there. They can heal by the laying on of hands, and can cleanse and resurrect the dead within two or three days after they died. They have so much energy that they can literally embrace people and bring light and energy back into them. We the International Order Of Knight Templars have the keys to Immortality.The International Order of Knight Templars has many hidden esoteric keys about ormus , immortality and 2012.
please take a look at these forums
groups.msn.com/KNIGHTSOFC...atsnew.msnw
my book ORMUS , HAS THE KEYS TO IMMORTALITY VEILED IN THE FIRST CHAPTER
www.authorhouse.com/BookStor...Home.aspx

LOVE AND LIGHT
DOMINIC

posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

Agnostic's prayer

Rene — Mon, 13 Nov 2006 04:27:15 GMT

I thought I would provide this link as a public service to any agnostics needing a good prayer to use prior to indulging in their Thanksgiving Day feast:

http://sonic.net/~roelofs/humor/zelazny_agnostic.html

posted in Agnostics - 2 replies

See the best of Germany

Mon, 18 Sep 2006 06:58:22 GMT

Know more about Germany and feel the beauty of it to this site. Go to http://www.germanytraveltour.blogspot.com now.

posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

How Bob Jones University converted me to agnosticism

Bill — Wed, 09 Aug 2006 07:46:12 GMT

I survived the BoJos!

Check out....
Nobojo - A look inside the wacky world of Bob Jones University
http://www.nobojo.org/

Scary-funny-crazy!

posted in Agnostics - 4 replies

The Worst Religion

Erik — Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:05:27 GMT

Please go to the Secular Humanism tribe for this.

posted in Agnostics - 6 replies

Elvis didn't do no Drugs!

Poster_Boy — Sat, 12 Aug 2006 01:09:21 GMT

Penn and Teller investigate the Bible, while showing us a few miracles of their own!

http://throwawayyourtv.com/2006/06/bible-is-bullshit.html

posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

Get your, "Jesus never Existed" T-shirts NOW!!!

Rocky — Sat, 05 Aug 2006 02:23:23 GMT

Get your, "Jesus never Existed" T-shirts, Housewares, Hats & Bags, Stickers, Buttons & Magnets etc NOW!!!

http://www.cafepress.com/truthbeknown

* If you get a close up of the products you will notice that it says "never" in small black print

AWESOME !!!!!!!!!!

;

posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

Dear Dr. Laura Schlesinger

Poster_Boy — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 01:18:12 GMT

You may have heard this before...I've seen it on the internet before. I am transcribing this text directly from 'The New Internationalist: The uses and abuses of Religion.' (August 2004)

***Dr. Laura Schlesinger is a U.S. Broadcaster who dispenses advice to people who call her radio show. This is a letter from an appreciative listener.***

Dear Dr. Laura,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. when someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle for example, I simply remind them that ~Leviticus 18:22- clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar of sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord. (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c)I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstural uncleanliness. (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

d) Lev 25-44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't own Canadians?

e)I have a neighbour that insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states that he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev 11:10), it is less of an abomination than homosexuality. Can you clarify this?

g)Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if there is a defect in my sight. I have to admit I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i)I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j)My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/ polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. is it really necessary to go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just bring them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev 20:14).

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your faithful listener,

P. Uzzled.

posted in Agnostics - 1 reply

The Greatest Story Ever Told

Rocky — Tue, 11 Jul 2006 14:01:23 GMT

The Greatest Story Ever Told

'Naked Truth' video -

The whole video is interesting but if you want to skip to 25:00 for Egyptian points, then to 33:00, then to 45:00 for similarities of 16 'savior for mankind'

& 1:05:00 for the MUST SEE - 'SUN through the Zodiac', the basic 'Solar Mythology' explanation - it appears Acharya is not alone in her conclusions.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6410112404402873027&q=naked+truth

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posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

Are beliefs hallucinogenic?

VoodooChild — Thu, 03 Nov 2005 04:09:32 GMT

A hallucination is defined on dictionary.com as

hal·lu·ci·na·tion
n.
1. False or distorted perception of objects or events with a compelling sense of their reality, usually resulting from a mental disorder or drug.
2. The objects or events so perceived.

Do beliefs not cause a false or distorted perception of objects or events with a compelling sense of their reality? Today a suicide bomber killed 26 people in Iraq, in part because he believed that doing so would insure him a place in heaven and some hot, sweet virgin pussy. Did his beliefs not distort his perception of the event?

Last year, a piece of toast sold for $28,000 on Ebay because some Christian believer hallucinated that the pattern on the toast “was” the virgin Mary—she was quite sure it couldn’t have been any of the other billions of women who have lived or been created by the human imagination. How different is this really from the typical acid-head’s story of looking at a white wall and seeing colors?

But let’s not be so naïve to think that this only happens to simple religious folks. As Thomas Kuhn has demonstrated, scientists trained and working in one paradigm almost never convert to the new “better” paradigm. Paradigm shifts generally happen, not because the old curmudgeons eventually get converted, but because the old curmudgeons eventually die. And a new generation raised on both paradigms sees that the newer one is more promising.

Psychologists call this phenomenon “confirmation bias”. Our experience is filtered by our nervous systems in such a way that we generally “see” confirmations of our beliefs in everything, and filter-out conflicting information as noise. This effect has been demonstrated empirically.

The definition above seems to be mistaken about one thing. Usually we *don't* need drugs or mental disorders to hallucinate.

posted in Agnostics - 6 replies

My fellow tribesman heed me!

Bo — Fri, 03 Mar 2006 14:31:21 GMT

Do you see not the hoards of atheists trolling in our own ground, pissing us in our own turf?

I say we bring their game back to them, what do you say?

http://nogod.tribe.net/thread/985d2b8f-0631-4f0a-9f99-4d2ed7090797

posted in Agnostics - 34 replies

Think Like A Fundy

vickicunningham — Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:13:47 GMT

http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/fundy.html

I saw this on another site and decided to share it here.

posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

Prove Christ exists, judge orders priest

Rocky — Tue, 03 Jan 2006 18:59:43 GMT

It's Interesting that this is happening in Italy -- home of the Vatican.

---

Prove Christ exists, judge orders priest
From Richard Owen in Rome

AN ITALIAN judge has ordered a priest to appear in court this month to prove that Jesus Christ existed.

The case against Father Enrico Righi has been brought in the town of Viterbo, north of Rome, by Luigi Cascioli, a retired agronomist who once studied for the priesthood but later became a militant atheist.

Signor Cascioli, author of a book called The Fable of Christ, began legal proceedings against Father Righi three years ago after the priest denounced Signor Cascioli in the parish newsletter for questioning Christ’s historical existence.

Yesterday Gaetano Mautone, a judge in Viterbo, set a preliminary hearing for the end of this month and ordered Father Righi to appear. The judge had earlier refused to take up the case, but was overruled last month by the Court of Appeal, which agreed that Signor Cascioli had a reasonable case for his accusation that Father Righi was “abusing popular credulity”.

Signor Cascioli’s contention — echoed in numerous atheist books and internet sites — is that there was no reliable evidence that Jesus lived and died in 1st-century Palestine apart from the Gospel accounts, which Christians took on faith. There is therefore no basis for Christianity, he claims.

Signor Cascioli’s one-man campaign came to a head at a court hearing last April when he lodged his accusations of “abuse of popular credulity” and “impersonation”, both offences under the Italian penal code. He argued that all claims for the existence of Jesus from sources other than the Bible stem from authors who lived “after the time of the hypothetical Jesus” and were therefore not reliable witnesses.

Signor Cascioli maintains that early Christian writers confused Jesus with John of Gamala, an anti-Roman Jewish insurgent in 1st-century Palestine. Church authorities were therefore guilty of “substitution of persons”.

The Roman historians Tacitus and Suetonius mention a “Christus” or “Chrestus”, but were writing “well after the life of the purported Jesus” and were relying on hearsay.

Father Righi said there was overwhelming testimony to Christ’s existence in religious and secular texts. Millions had in any case believed in Christ as both man and Son of God for 2,000 years.

“If Cascioli does not see the sun in the sky at midday, he cannot sue me because I see it and he does not,” Father Righi said.

Signor Cascioli said that the Gospels themselves were full of inconsistencies and did not agree on the names of the 12 apostles. He said that he would withdraw his legal action if Father Righi came up with irrefutable proof of Christ’s existence by the end of the month.

The Vatican has so far declined to comment.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1967413,00.html

posted in Agnostics - 22 replies

The God Test

VoodooChild — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 22:08:07 GMT

Also known as battleground God. This ought to ruffle some feathers. The link to start the test is at the bottom of this page. There are other fun games on this site as well.

http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/god.htm

posted in Agnostics - 2 replies

Agnosticism and Inteligent Design

Daniel — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 18:25:26 GMT

I tend to be at odds with everyone about my beliefs on Inteligent design. My athiest friends belittle me for not dismissing it altogether. My theist friends cannot see why, if I cannot dismiss ID, I do not just accept it. I don't really know what to think, nor do I feel the need to answer the question. It's unknowable.

If they want to teach faith based history, then they should teach it in faith based institutions. (IE oral roberts university) If they want to teach fact based history, then they should teach it in fact based institutions. (ie Harvard, Abraham Lincoln Public High School) Simple. Done.

posted in Agnostics - 18 replies

"Da Vinci Code" vs. "Left Behind"

Rocky — Mon, 22 May 2006 02:41:41 GMT

"Da Vinci Code" vs. "Left Behind"

Ya know, I was just thinking. Nobody seemed to care about the mass genocide of non-believers during the apocalypse , armageddon in the infamous "Left Behind" series.

There appears to be a monumental double-standard going on here. It's perfectly fine to bash & destroy nonbelievers & send them to an eternal suffering & torment in Hell but when someone like Dan Brown writes a fiction he & his movie & book are attacked. Today they had a "Da Vinci Code" book burning!!! The Fundies are preparing for the new, modern Inquisition as we speak. Many fundies believe "Left Behind" to be nonfiction since it is about the 'end times' as described in 'Revelation' the last book in the bible.

It gives xianity the opportunity for the largest human mass genocide in history to rid itself of non-believers so that the entire world may then finally agree with them. Xians claim that everything changed with the new testament - even though it started off with their god allowing the execution of his only begotten son as a blood-ritual sacrifice & ends in "Revelation" with an apocalypse / armageddon. The bottom line is, If you're not a believer in jesus/christianity, you go to hell. Religion has been used to justify war, slavery, sexism, racism, homophobia, mutilations, intolerance, and oppression of minorities. - there is no moderation there whatsoever.

The Religious Tolerance website says:

"...during the second coming of Christ, Christ "will exterminate one third of the earth's population in a massive genocide. It will be numerically the largest mass extermination of humans in history".
http://www.religioustolerance.org/rapture.htm

Enjoy this 'A Brief History of the Apocalypse'
http://www.abhota.info/end1.htm

Maybe non-believers need to start protesting before it's to late???

posted in Agnostics - 3 replies

Why you must believe in God

DocSquat — Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:25:24 GMT

If you were able to read the heading of this posting, then you must believe in God. At least, you must believe that god exists as a *word*. As a word, god implies a mental construct. A very vague mental construct, that everyone sees a bit differently, argues about endlessly, and even kills others over.

You must believe that people get very agitated over this word, because of their mental constructs -- even the "atheist" acknowledges this. In your mind, you may think that someone else's construct cannot possibly exist, but you are only arguing from the perspective of your own mental construct of what "god" means. Their construct is different from yours. Even people within the same sects argue about god. There will be no end to arguing about this most vaguely defined of all words. The word exists. The mental construct exists. "God" exists. Get over it. Stop arguing with idiots.

I joined this tribe just to say that.

posted in Agnostics - 38 replies

Top 50 Countries With Highest Proportion of Atheists / Agnostics

Rocky — Sat, 08 Apr 2006 19:31:29 GMT

Top 50 Countries With Highest Proportion of Atheists / Agnostics

Below is a list of the top fifty countries containing the largest measured percentage of people who identify as atheist, agnostic, or non-believer in God. These figures do not necessarily represent the number of people who are identify themselves as "atheists."

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html

posted in Agnostics - 4 replies

Why do atheists hang out here?

gentrified — Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:27:07 GMT

Why the atheists? Can't they read the tribe's name?

Why are some atheists so evangelistic in their belief that no god exists?

posted in Agnostics - 11 replies

Agnostic Paradox

me — Sat, 24 Dec 2005 03:53:43 GMT

How many of you agnostics are realy agnostic about your agnosticism? Or, put a better way, how many of you think that knowlege is impossible as a symbol is a model for a system, and a model can never completly predict that system becuase it is by neccicity, lacking some of the information and levels of correlation. On the other hand, maybe is really is possible to gain an absolute understanding of the universe. After all, non-locality theory suggests that the whole of the universe exisits within each of its parts. Maybe it is only our current limitations that cause us to think that objective reality can not be percieved. I tend to try to sit on the fence on this one, but I always fall off on the knowlege is an illusion side of things. Anyone else feel me on this one ?

posted in Agnostics - 10 replies

I hate televangelists!

vickicunningham — Sat, 12 Nov 2005 03:26:44 GMT

Locally the battle about Intelligent Design being taught in biology classes has been big news. The Dover Area School Districts' entire school board was voted out this week! Hooray for the intelligent voters of Dover, PA.

Anyway, on the local news they kept showing Pat Robertson over and over giving his take on the whole situtation. His main point was something to this effect (I'm paraphrasing here . . .) - People of Dover you have made a grave mistake, let's hope that you don't have a natural disaster happen in your area. Because god may abandon you the same way you have abandoned him.

Wow, that must mean that the recent devastating hurricanes were a direct result of the evildoers in America abandoning god. Hmmm, I wonder why all those churches were destroyed . . .

posted in Agnostics - 12 replies

Freethinker Products You May Want

Rocky — Sun, 19 Mar 2006 20:02:30 GMT

posted in Agnostics - 1 reply

If

maybememe — Sat, 21 Jan 2006 06:51:18 GMT

If god is everything and anything at all times, then I am god.

But I have limits. I am not god.

But if god has limits, then I might be god.

If god doesn't have limits, then ....

posted in Agnostics - 9 replies

Turtles All The Way Down

Fri, 17 Feb 2006 03:12:11 GMT

There is a humorous story about a confrontation between a scientist and an old lady.
I don't know if it is true, but here's the Wikipedia reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

What it made me think of is one of the problems that I have with Intelligent Design.
Oversimplified, the premise of ID is:
The universe is of such a high order,
that it must have been built by something of a higher order.
If that is true, then logically, this "higher order creator" must have been created
by something of an even higher order.
It's God's all the way up!

What do you think?

posted in Agnostics - 7 replies

I.D. cannot be mentioned in biology classes!!!

Rocky — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:12:58 GMT

The judge in this case, U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III, is a Bush W. appointee so, the Republicans absolutely cannot make the claims of an <<activist liberal Judicial system>>.

---------

Judge Rules Against Pa. Biology Curriculum

15 minutes ago

HARRISBURG, Pa. - "Intelligent design" cannot be mentioned in biology classes in a Pennsylvania public school district, a federal judge said Tuesday, ruling in one of the biggest courtroom clashes on evolution since the 1925 Scopes trial.

Dover Area School Board members violated the Constitution when they ordered that its biology curriculum must include the notion that life on Earth was produced by an unidentified intelligent cause, U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III said. Several members repeatedly lied to cover their motives even while professing religious beliefs, he said.

The school board policy, adopted in October 2004, was believed to have been the first of its kind in the nation.

"The citizens of the Dover area were poorly served by the members of the Board who voted for the ID Policy," Jones wrote.

The board's attorneys had said members were seeking to improve science education by exposing students to alternatives to Charles Darwin's theory that evolution develops through natural selection. Intelligent-design proponents argue that the theory cannot fully explain the existence of complex life forms.

The plaintiffs challenging the policy argued that intelligent design amounts to a secular repackaging of creationism, which the courts have already ruled cannot be taught in public schools. The judge agreed.

"We find that the secular purposes claimed by the Board amount to a pretext for the Board's real purpose, which was to promote religion in the public school classroom," he wrote in his 139-page opinion.

The Dover policy required students to hear a statement about intelligent design before ninth-grade biology lessons on evolution. The statement said Charles Darwin's theory is "not a fact" and has inexplicable "gaps." It refers students to an intelligent-design textbook, "Of Pandas and People," for more information.

Jones wrote that he wasn't saying the intelligent design concept shouldn't be studied and discussed, saying its advocates "have bona fide and deeply held beliefs which drive their scholarly endeavors."

But, he wrote, "our conclusion today is that it is unconstitutional to teach ID as an alternative to evolution in a public school science classroom."

The controversy divided the community and galvanized voters to oust eight incumbent school board members who supported the policy in the Nov. 8 school board election.

Said the judge: "It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy."

The board members were replaced by a slate of eight opponents who pledged to remove intelligent design from the science curriculum.

Eric Rothschild, the lead attorney for the families who challenged the policy, called the ruling "a real vindication for the parents who had the courage to stand up and say there was something wrong in their school district."

Richard Thompson, president and chief counsel of the Thomas More Law Center in Ann Arbor, Mich., which represented the school board, did not immediately return a telephone message seeking comment.

The dispute is the latest chapter in a long-running debate over the teaching of evolution dating back to the famous 1925 Scopes Monkey Trial, in which Tennessee biology teacher John T. Scopes was fined $100 for violating a state law that forbade teaching evolution. The Tennessee Supreme Court reversed his conviction on a technicality, and the law was repealed in 1967.

Jones heard arguments in the fall during a six-week trial in which expert witnesses for each side debated intelligent design's scientific merits. Other witnesses, including current and former school board members, disagreed over whether creationism was discussed in board meetings months before the curriculum change was adopted.

The case is among at least a handful that have focused new attention on the teaching of evolution in the nation's schools.

Earlier this month, a federal appeals court in Georgia heard arguments over whether evolution disclaimer stickers placed in a school system's biology textbooks were unconstitutional. A federal judge in January ordered Cobb County school officials to immediately remove the stickers, which called evolution a theory, not a fact.

In November, state education officials in Kansas adopted new classroom science standards that call the theory of evolution into question.

___

On the Net:

Dover Area School District: http://www.dover.k12.pa.us

National Center for Science Education: http://www.ncseweb.org

Thomas More Law Center: http://www.thomasmore.org

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051220/ap_on_re_us/evolution_debate

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posted in Agnostics - 4 replies

'The Christmas Hoax'

Rocky — Fri, 09 Dec 2005 15:30:17 GMT

The Christmas Hoax: Jesus is NOT the "Reason for the Season"
by Acharya S

The December 25th birthday of the sun god is a common motif globally, dating back at least 12,000 years as reflected in winter solstices artfully recorded in caves. "Nearly all nations," says Doane, commemorated the birth of the god Sol to the "Queen of Heaven" and "Celestial Virgin." The winter solstice was celebrated in countless places, including China and Persia, the latter regarding the solar Lord and Savior Mithra's birth. The winter solstice festival in Egypt included the babe in a manger brought out of the sanctuary.

Ancient Greeks celebrated the birthday of Hercules and Dionysus on this date, as the ancient authority Macrobius (c. 400 AD/CE) maintained. Even the Greek father god, Zeus, was supposedly born at the winter solstice. The "Christmas" festival was celebrated at Athens and was called "the Lenaea," during which time, apparently, "the death and rebirth of the harvest infant Dionysus were similarly dramatized." This Lenaea festival is depicted in an Aurignacian cave-painting in Spain, with a "young Dionysus with huge genitals," standing naked in the middle of "nine dancing women." The Aurignacian period extended from 34,000 to 23,000 years ago.

The Greco-Syrian sun god Adonis--the "Adonai" of the Bible--was also born on December 25th, a festival "spoken of by Tertullian, Jerome, and other Fathers of the Church, who inform us that the ceremonies took place in a cave, and that the cave in which they celebrated his mysteries in Bethlehem, was that in which Christ Jesus was born."

Nor is the winter solstice celebration a purely "Pagan" concept, as the Jews also observed it in reference to the birth of their god, Yahweh. The "Feast of Illumination," "Feast of Lights" or "feast of the Dedication," occurred in winter (John 10:22-23; Josephus's Antiquities XIII, 7.7) and represented the "ancient Hebrew Winter Solstice Feast." The legend of Chanukah was created by the Talmudist authors in order "to conceal the antiquity of the feast, which was originally Jehovah's birthday as the Sun-God." Moreover, this solar birthday dates back to "at least as early as the time of Nehemiah (Maccabees, I, 18)."

Indians for millennia have celebrated the winter solstice, as a cardinal point, the new year and, presumably, the birth of the sun god. In the Indian solstice celebration--a "great religious festival"--there is "rejoicing everywhere." As in the West, the Indian "decorate their houses with garlands, and make presents to friends and relatives," a "custom of very great antiquity." One way the Brahman priests of Orissa have celebrated the solstice is by carrying images of "the youthful Krishna to the houses of their disciples and their patrons, to whom they present some of the red powder and tar of roses, and receive presents of money and cloth in return." Thus, in India the winter solstice has been as much a major holiday as it was anywhere, which is to be expected in a land permeated with sun worship for millennia.

Regarding the Persian sun god Mithra and his sacrifice, in the 19th century respected Christian author Rev. J.P. Lundy remarked:

"For let it be borne in mind that it was precisely at the season of this sacrifice, near the beginning of the new year, that the birth of Mithra was celebrated over all Persia and the world, in temple-caves, on the night of the 24th of December, the night of light. Even the British Druids celebrated it, and called the next day, the 25th of December, Nollagh or Noel, the day of regeneration, celebrating it with great fires on tops of their mountains. In fact, all nations, as if by common consent, at the first moment after midnight of the 24th of December, celebrated the birth of the sun-god, type among the Gentiles of Christ, the Incarnate Son of God, as the Desire of all nations and the Saviour of the world."

Lundy was thus well aware of the sun gods, whom he deemed "types of Christ," indicating Christ's solar nature as well.

Concerning the winter solstice festival in Ireland, the author of "Christian Mythology Unveiled" relates:

"The Baal-fire feast, or meeting, was a great festival in Ireland, on the 25th of December, and midsummer eve. Baal, or Bel, was a name of the sun all over the east."

It is important to note that the "December 25th" birthdate only applies to the age and hemisphere in which the winter solstice falls on December 21-24. In other ages, the solstice month is different, changing with the precession of the equinoxes every 2150 years.

The December 25th birthdate is that of the sun, not a "real person," revealing its unoriginality within Christianity and the true nature of the Christian godman. "Christmas" was not incorporated into Christianity until 354 AD/CE. In reality, there is no evidence, no primary sources which show that "Jesus is the reason for the season."

Happy Solstice!

Excerpted from "Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha & Christ Unveiled"

Enjoy the book & DVD 'Suns of god' - http://www.truthbeknown.com/sunsofgod.htm

--------

p.s. Christmas was not recognized by the U.S. gov't because it was considered too PAGAN. The holiday wasn't recognized until the 1860's. Even then, it was only recognized by 11 states.

posted in Agnostics - 10 replies

The passion of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

VoodooChild — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 01:23:35 GMT

Interview with Bobby Henderson, the man behind the monster: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,69905-0.html?tw=rss.index

posted in Agnostics - 1 reply

Model Agnosticism

jodymeme — Mon, 07 Nov 2005 08:03:26 GMT

My agnostic approach falls into this camp very easily.

excerpt from Robert Anton Wilson's Cosmic Trigger:
http://www.rawilson.com/trigger1.html

I DO NOT BELIEVE ANYTHING

This remark was made, in these very words, by John Gribbin, physics editor of New Scientist magazine, in a BBC-TV debate with Malcolm Muggeridge, and it provoked incredulity o the part of most viewers. It seems to be a hangover of the medieval Catholic era that causes most people, even the educated, to think that everybody must "believe" something or other, that if one is not a theist, one must be a dogmatic atheist, and if one does not think Capitalism is perfect, one must believe fervently in Socialism, and if one does not have blind faith in X, one must alternatively have blind faith in not-X or the reverse of X.

My own opinion is that belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence. The more certitude one assumes, the less there is left to think about, and a person sure of everything would never have any need to think about anything and might be considered clinically dead under current medical standards, where absence of brain activity is taken to mean that life has ended.

My attitude is identical to that of Dr. Gribbin and the majority of physicists today, and is known in physics as "the Copenhagen Interpretation," because it was formulated in Copenhagen by Dr. Niels Bohr and his co-workers c. 1926-28. The Copenhagen Interpretation is sometimes called "model agnosticism" and holds that any grid we use to organize our experience of the world is a model of the world and should not be confused with the world itself. Alfred Korzybski, the semanticist, tried to popularize this outside physics with the slogan, "The map is not the territory." Alan Watts, a talented exegete of Oriental philosophy, restated it more vividly as "The menu is not the meal."

Belief in the traditional sense, or certitude, or dogma, amounts to the grandiose delusion, "My current model" -- or grid, or map, or reality-tunnel -- "contains the whole universe and will never need to be revised." In terms of the history of science and knowledge in general, this appears absurd and arrogant to me, and I am perpetually astonished that so many people still manage to live with such a medieval attitude.

posted in Agnostics - 19 replies

Overlooked

Pinky — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 01:14:06 GMT

Let me begin by introducing myself (sort of). I go by Pinky, and I'm not technically an Agnostic. Nor am I another Atheist, I'm Wiccan (put simply). Then why am I here? I take an interest in questioning the possibility, probability, or lack there of, of religion and what it entails (yes, even my own). I thought this might be an appropriate place to discuss/debate this type of thing. I hope no one finds me intrusive, and that you all can accept me with open minds. That said, here's something that's recently caught my interest, about one of my favorite topics of debate (Genesis):

It is said that "Christian scientists" claim to have calculated how old the world is, according to the bible. The bible, of course, does not give an actual date, or mentions any date at all within its pages, to my knowledge. Apparently, the "Christian scientists" have determined the age of the earth to be roughly about 9-10 thousand years old, by following the lineage of people mentioned in the bible, and tracing them all the way back to the creation of Adam and Eve.

There is something I feel they greatly overlooked. There are in fact two creation stories mentioned in the bible. The first is contained in the first and (beginning of the) second chapters of Genesis, and the second starts just after the first story. The creation of Adam and Eve isn't until the second creation story (Genesis 2:7-22). The first creation story, however, does include the creation of both male and female humans (Genesis 1:27). There is also later evidence that there had been humans created before Adam and Eve, when one of their first two sons, Cain, finds a wife in the land of Nod, east of Eden (Genesis 4:16-17). If no other offspring of Adam and Eve's had not even been conceived yet (according the order presented in the bible), then from where else could this mystery woman have come?

The bible gives no reference to how much time passed between the first creation, and the creation of Adam and Eve (to which "Christian scientists" trace back the beginning of the earth). Assuming the bible might be true, there is no way to say either the creation of Adam and Eve occurred instantly after the first creation story, or billions of years later. So who is to really say that the Christian Bible does NOT support the age of the earth being several billion years old, as current evolutionists claim?

Thoughts?

posted in Agnostics - 12 replies

The Beast

Rocky — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 02:14:10 GMT

"The Beast Movie",

A tribe all about the movie titled "The Beast", to be released on 6-6-06. Along with its companion movie titled, "The god who wasn't there". Here's how the film's promoters describe its plot:

"When her father, a biblical scholar, mysteriously disappears, a Christian high-school student named Danielle investigates. She discovers that he had stumbled across a cover-up of Christianity's best-kept secret: that Jesus Christ never existed.

Now that she possesses proof of this dangerous fact, Danielle must confront two strong forces: a band of fundamentalist Christians who will stop at nothing to suppress the truth, and her own desire for Jesus Christ to be real.

Diving into factual territory well-explored by scholars but largely hidden from the view of the public, "The Beast" is an epic story of innocence lost, faith in crisis and the astonishing power of the truth to survive."

On the trailer, which is viewable on the film's site, ominous music plays while these words flash across the screen: "Centuries ago, a legend was invented… forgery … fraud … coercion … wealth … greed … torture … murder … war … gave it the power to dominate the world.

What if you, learned the secret that could end it all?"

The Beast Website - www.thebeastmovie.com/

-----

Yes, the Beast movie is a fictional movie. However, it's largely based from the non-fictional work of Acharya in her first book titled, "The Christ Conspiracy: The greatest story ever SOLD". Enjoy her website at: www.truthbeknown.com/index101.htm

---

The trailer - http://www.thebeastmovie.com/trailer/index.html

---

The discussion forum - http://www.community.thebeastmovie.com/

The new tribe -

http://tribes.tribe.net/thebeast?_click_path=Application%5Btribe%5D.Tribe%5B92a30343-00c5-454d-a0f7-a085ce4fdb5e%5D

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posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

Merry Newtonmas!

Fri, 02 Dec 2005 15:34:39 GMT

From Wikipedia:

Newtonmas is a secular holiday celebrated on 25 December each year in honor of Sir Isaac Newton's birthday. Newton was born on 25 December 1642 (OS). He made important advances in science and mathematics, held a professorship at Trinity College without joining the clergy, and according to the legend, his ideas about gravity were inspired by a falling apple. For secularists who enjoy being caught up in Christmas excitement but uncomfortable celebrating a religious holiday, his birthday fortuitously provides a convenient opportunity for non-religious celebration. (Note that Newton was born before the introduction into England of our present Gregorian calendar; if we retroactively apply that calendar backwards to include his birth, it would fall on 4 January.)

Some have suggested that Newton might well have been bemused at his birthday's appropriation by secularists, pointing out that despite his fame as one of the greatest scientists ever to have lived, the Bible was Sir Isaac Newton's greatest passion. He devoted more time to the study of scripture than to science, and said, "I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by those who were inspired. I study the Bible daily." It should be noted, however, that some scholars have argued that Newton's privately held religious beliefs were far outside the norm for the time, and, certainly non-traditional, would have quite probably been considered heretical.

In preference to Newtonmas, some people use the term Gravmas, an abbreviation of "gravitational mass" which carries a double meaning in this context.

Traditions

Like the Christmas tree, the holiday boasts a "Newtonmas Tree" — an apple tree. Some who celebrate this holiday, believing that "it's not nice to kill trees", substitute "something green and treelike" with apples, preferably synthetic ones, on them. Living apple trees are of course preferable; they can be festooned in place as they grow with decorations like lights and ornaments.

Gifts of knowledge are exchanged on Newtonmas morning. Popular choices are books, CDs, videos, or other media — the point is that the gifts, according to tradition, should contribute to the recipient's intellectual development.

posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

BBC: When science meets God

Fri, 02 Dec 2005 15:31:49 GMT

When science meets God
Robert Winston
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4488328.stm

The world today is dominated by science, but faith has not withered away. Robert Winston, respected scientist and committed Jew, examines the relationship between science and religion.

[be sure to check out comments at the end]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4488328.stm

posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

I wish Jehovahs Witnesses would come to MY door

Polly — Wed, 23 Nov 2005 23:14:46 GMT

I respect religion, but I feel like if youre bothering me in my home, uninvited (well, practically IN, on your doorstep is kindof in, no?), then i have the right to do the same to you. If Jehovahs Witnesses came to my door, I would make a habit of checking before I opened my door and if it was them, Id strip naked and open the door to invite them for tea. Or do various other things to make them uncomfortable.
Unfortunately, I live too far up in the boondocks for any religious recruiter to come to my door. I have to go downtown for that (fliers).
blleeeeeeeh.
on the other hand, if i knew that people stripped nakey when jehovahs came to their door, i might convert just for an excuse. HA!!!! maybe for a day anyway.

posted in Agnostics - 6 replies

Religion kills ;-)

Tue, 01 Nov 2005 18:29:25 GMT

Pastor electrocuted while performing baptism
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/10/31/pastor.electrocuted.ap/index.html

posted in Agnostics - 2 replies

Free Will

Rene — Thu, 20 Oct 2005 03:45:51 GMT

I think most concepts of God negate free will. If the universe is planned and/or controled by some superior conciousness, then each individual is merely a puppet in a play and each life is meaningless in my estimation.

This is why I cannot understand people who say, if there is no God then life is meaningless. Life is a constant unfolding of the new, without a plan; this is what makes it interesting and meaningful- we are constantly in the process of creation. Any God concept nullifies this and all possible meaning for existence.

If I knew with any degree of certainty that there was a God, I would conclude that life is meaningless and not worth living. Because of this, I would say that free will and the absence of God should be the starting point for anyone who desires to answer the age-old question; Why am I here? If you start assuming there is a God, the only answer is; to do God's will, which doesn't actually answer the question, but only pushes it away from you and lays it on the lap of God. Now we have a bigger question, one we probably could never answer- why is God here and what is the game he is playing with us? And then the final question; Do I want to be a pawn in someone's game? For me, the answer would be no.

posted in Agnostics - 1 reply

Proof at Last

B_love — Wed, 28 Sep 2005 09:38:34 GMT

I'm here......I'm here....... Ok, so maybe it is just tribe handle
I just didn't what to have one of those Subjects like: Hi I'm new to this tribe, fallowed up with somthing even lamer than my subject, and then get butt hurt when no one replies to my post.
All I hope to achive is maybe a few chuckles that I'll
never hear. ;-)
Sincerly your(S) God

posted in Agnostics - 32 replies

Religion in Politics:

Rocky — Fri, 07 Oct 2005 15:33:05 GMT

Religion in Politics:

Why is religion in politics such a common theme these days?

Because 42% of US Senators are getting a 100% rating from the "Christian Coalition" score cards. No Republicans got below a 50% score card rating. Only 22% of the US population Identify with the christian right.

What do they believe?

"The surest antidote to tyranny is a free people who believe it owes allegiance to a higher power, not the government." - Ralph Reed ("Active Faith" 96 pg 8-9)

- In other words, so long as everyone is christian, they're all free. The US Constitution says that the government owes its allegiance to "the people", not a higher power. The very first 3 words in the Constitution are "We the people".

"We need common sense judges who understand that our rights are derived from god. Those are the kind of judges I intend to put of the bench." - G.W. Bush

- Once we have a government that believes it derives its authority from god, then we become a theocracy. If you ask folks on the xian right if they believe in a theocracy they'll say, "absolutely not". No, they only agree with Ralph Reeds Idea that a democracy means everybody sharing his Idea of a higher power (sigh).

"Christians alone are Biblically mandated to occupy all secular Institutions until Christ returns". "The army of god is to conquer the earth, to subdue it, to rule over it, to exercise dominion"

- The xian right are waging war on all secular institutions. Please get involved in the 2006 elections.

Also get educated very quickly by viewing these 2 videos. view this one first - "Life and Liberty for All Who Believe". Then this second - "The Rise of Dominionism" at -

http://www.theocracywatch.org/audio-video.htm

Home:
http://www.theocracywatch.org/

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posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

Catholic Church no longer swears by the Bible

Rocky — Wed, 05 Oct 2005 13:10:32 GMT

Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible

'The hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true. The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible.

“They go on to condemn fundamentalism for its “intransigent intolerance” and to warn of “significant dangers” involved in a fundamentalist approach.
“Such an approach is dangerous, for example, when people of one nation or group see in the Bible a mandate for their own superiority, and even consider themselves permitted by the Bible to use violence against others.”

Similarly, they refute the apocalyptic prophecies of Revelation, the last book of the Christian Bible, in which the writer describes the work of the risen Jesus, the death of the Beast and the wedding feast of Christ the Lamb. '

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1811332,00.html

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posted in Agnostics - 1 reply

Solar Mythology & Astrotheology

Rocky — Tue, 18 Jan 2005 05:03:07 GMT

G'day,

Anyone else heard about Solar Mythology, Astrotheology & how it directly relates to religions around the world today? Sun symbolism goes back as we have ever known right through to this present day. Yet, most folks aren't aware of what Solar symbolism is even though we are surrounded by it.

- Solar Mythology & Astrotheology -

"It is abundantly evident that mankind's predominant religious worship globally for many thousands of years has been Astronomical and Astrological, and that this Astrotheology has continued within the faiths popular today. These facts, however, have been hidden under a cloak of historicity, with the Astromythological players being presented as "real people".
One who understands the Solar Mythology or Astrotheology is one who knows the nature of "godhead" and the divine. Without this knowledge, humanity continues to wallow in erroneous concepts that blind it to its unity and allow for dangerous divisiveness."

"The Suns of god" - page 141

http://www.truthbeknown.com/sunsofgod.htm

This book is an excellent resource!!!

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1931882312/002-4837956-2269628?v=glance

---------------------------------

You gotta see this animation -

http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/solarmyth/day.html

A few photos -

http://www.bluehoney.org/SunWorship.htm

--------- SUN WORSHIP ------

http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/bookr.html - BOOKS

http://smithbrad.nventure.com/sunworship.htm

http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/solarmyth/christ2002.htm

- Constantine -

http://www.crosscircle.com/CH_2f.htm

http://library.flawlesslogic.com/frazer_2.htm

http://www.nisbett.com/holidays/christmas_and_sun_worship.htm

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/monstr.htm

http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm

There is so much more!!!!!!!!!

Peace

posted in Agnostics - 18 replies

Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

vickicunningham — Wed, 28 Sep 2005 22:06:41 GMT

http://www.venganza.org/

posted in Agnostics - 1 reply

National Day of Reason - 'bout time!!!

Rocky — Mon, 19 Sep 2005 13:34:39 GMT

National Day of Reason - 'bout time!!!

Non-believers raising voice in capital

WASHINGTON — Americans who don't believe in God have decided it's time they had a lobbyist in the nation's capital. Their new advocate describes herself as a "soft, fuzzy atheist."

Lori Lipman Brown, former Nevada State Senator starts Monday as executive director of the Secular Coalition for America. Her two goals: keep religion out of government and win respect for a stigmatized minority.

Five humanist and atheist groups formed the Secular Coalition for America after the Sept. 11 attacks, unsettled by talk linking God and patriotism. "That was a major impetus to try to raise our profile," said Duncan Crary, a spokesman for one coalition member, the Institute for Humanist Studies in Albany, N.Y.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-09-18-atheists_x.htm

---

State/Church Watchdog Group Protests "Day of Prayer" Proclamations, Asks Governors to Balance with "Day of Reason"

http://www.ffrf.org/news/2005/noprayday.php

Proclamations -

http://www.ffrf.org/timely/proclamations/

---

National Day of Reason

http://www.nationaldayofreason.org/

The Secular Coalition for America

http://www.secular.org/

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posted in Agnostics - 1 reply

Evolution vs Creationism in court

Rocky — Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:17:59 GMT

Evolution vs Creationism in court -

Battle Over ‘Intelligent Design Creationism’ Goes To The Courts

Should public schools teach religion in science classes? The U.S. Constitution says no!

Proponents of intelligent design are pressing their agenda at school boards across the country. Every American should be alert to the danger posed by this movement.

Checkout the "Frequently Asked Questions" at the bottom ...

Q: What is intelligent design?
A: Intelligent design (ID) is a pseudoscientific set of beliefs based on the notion that life on earth is so complex that it cannot be explained by the scientific theory of evolution and therefore must have been designed by a supernatural entity.

Q: Is ID a scientific theory?
A: No. A scientific theory must be testable and based on observable evidence. A scientific theory makes predictions about occurrences in the natural world that can then be tested through scientific experimentation. ID makes no predictions and cannot be scrutinized using the scientific method. So although proponents of ID couch their views in scientific terms, their assertion that ID is a scientific theory is false.

Q: How is ID like and unlike traditional creationism and creation science?
A: ID is the most recent incarnation of the evolving strategy that began with creationism and creation science. Unlike creationism, ID does not openly state that it relies on a literal interpretation of the Bible. ID does not discuss publicly the age of the earth, and accepts some scientific evidence as fact. ID is like creationism and creation science in that it assumes the existence of a supernatural entity, but it does not declare that the entity is “God.” Some proponents have suggested that the entity may be a space alien or possibly a highly intelligent human with a time machine.

Q. What is biological evolution?
A. Biological evolution is a scientific theory that explains how life on earth has changed over time. The belief that species have evolved existed before Darwin, and was first stimulated by finding fossils of animals that no longer exist. Evolution has undergone many important developments since Darwin's time, most notably the incorporation of genetics. We know, though Darwin did not, that evolution is largely managed by DNA. The human genome project, for example, fully relies on developments in evolutionary theory that were unknown to Darwin.

Q. Why isn’t ID a possible alternative to evolution?
A. ID is not a scientific theory and therefore cannot be put forward as an alternative to the scientific theory of evolution. ID has no explanatory power or predictive power. It simply says that some things that seem very complex could not have happened based on natural causes. So where it sees complexity, it declares that it must have been created by a supernatural entity. This is not science.

Q: Who is behind the ID movement?
A: The ID movement is led by a small group of activists based at the Discovery Institute’s Center for Science and Culture (formerly Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture) in Seattle, WA. There are very few credentialed scientists among the group’s leadership, and those who are scientists typically studied in fields unrelated to biology. Their approach to religion is very different from the leading scientists in the United States who are religious. Most legitimate scientists who are people of faith accept the overwhelming evidence supporting the scientific theory of evolution and see no conflict between the two.

Q: What is the “Wedge Strategy?”
A: The Wedge Strategy is an internal memorandum from the Discovery Institute that was leaked to the Internet in 1999. Although ID proponents publicly declare that they are neutral on many questions related to their religious motivations, the Wedge document reveals in clear terms that their assertions are at best deceptive. The document specifically outlines plans to reverse prevailing scientific practices and methods, and makes clear that the motivations of ID’s main supporters are religious, not scientific. It is indeed curious that they would choose deception to advance their religious beliefs.

Q: Why not “teach both sides?”
A: This would be like teaching astrology in an astronomy course or alchemy in a chemistry class. There are not “two sides” to the science. Evolution is a scientific theory that seeks to explain how life on earth has changed over time, while ID is simply an ideology that attacks science and asks that its ideas be accepted as if they are true. Evolution and ID address different topics, employ different methods and certainly should be judged by entirely different standards.

Q: How does ID undermine science education?
A: Teaching ID as a so-called “alternative” to evolution would misinform students as to the scientific standing of the theory of evolution and the workings of the scientific method. In addition, it would improperly prepare them for postsecondary science education, placing them at a significant disadvantage to their peers. All scientists and physicians who study such diseases as SARS and AIDS, as well as those who trace how bacteria becomes resistant to antibiotics, completely rely on evolutionary theory to understand the phenomena they are examining. We are certain that even ID proponents would prefer to rely on these scientists rather than a scientist who believes that SARS or AIDS was created by intelligent design and can be explained only by intelligent design.

Q: How does ID undermine religious freedom?
A: ID is attempting to insert its particular religious beliefs into science education as if it were science. By trying to use governments to give the prestigious label of “science” to their controversial theories, they are misleading children and parents. By attempting to elevate a single religious viewpoint over others and situating religion in conflict with science, they are endangering the religious freedom of all Americans. In the words of Theologian John F. Haught, “If a child of mine were attending a biology class where the teacher proposed that students consider ID as an alternative to…evolution I would be offended religiously as well as intellectually.” (Haught, J, rep. App. 3, tab F, at 7.)

Q: What’s wrong with the claim that evolution is “just a theory?”
A: Calling evolution “just a theory” is deeply misleading because it confuses the everyday meaning of the word “theory” (a “hunch” or an “opinion.”) with the scientific meaning (requiring an explanation that is testable, grounded in evidence and able to predict natural phenomena better than competing theories). The scientific theory of evolution is one of the most robust theories in modern science. It has been corroborated by hundreds of thousands of independent observerations and has succeeded in predicting natural phenomena in every field of the biological sciences, from paleontology to molecular genetics. No persuasive evidence has been put forward in the last 150 years to contradict the theory of evolution. In the words of Theodosius Dobzhansky, one of the most prominent geneticists of the 20th century, “Nothing in biology makes sense except in light of evolution.”

Q: Does the scientific theory of evolution deny the existence of an intelligent designer or God?
A: No. Since the question of God’s existence is outside the realm of science, the theory of evolution is silent on it. Darwin himself openly wondered about the existence of a supreme designer throughout his life, but kept these questions separate from his scientific work. Accepting evolution and belief in God are not mutually exclusive. Many scientists hold personal religious beliefs, including Dr. Francis Collins, leader of the Human Genome Project and a practicing Catholic.

Q: Aren’t there controversies among scientists about evolution?
A: There are many debates within science about aspects of any theory, and scientific theories are constantly being revised as new and compelling information is learned. In evolution, as in all areas of science, our knowledge is incomplete. There are many important debates within evolutionary theory. For example, did human evolution occur in a steady succession of mutations or was there a sudden explosion in human biodiversity at some point in history? Does evolutionary change occur mostly as a result of individual mutations or group adaptation? How much of evolutionary change occurs because of the need to adapt to changing environments versus spontaneous genetic mutations? The list goes on. None of these debates, however, undermines the scientific standing of evolution itself. In fact, each has added to our understanding of the ways in which evolution works, and strengthened the core elements of the theory.

Q: Why not teach ID as just one controversy about evolution along with others?
A: Unlike real scientific theories, ID cannot provide any evidence in favor of its conclusions meaning that it is an ideology and not science.

Q: Have the ID critiques of evolutionary theory been published in peer-reviewed scientific journals?
A: Peer review is the standard process by which scientists judge each other’s work and deem it acceptable for publication in scientific journals. Only one article supporting ID has ever been published in a peer-reviewed journal the Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington and it was later disavowed by the Society’s governing council. The writer was a philosopher of science, not a practicing scientist, and the article reported no original data. Other scientific publications by authors affiliated with ID were on subjects other than ID. Aside from this one instance, proponents of ID have published their work in the popular press, avoiding review by experts.

Q: What do ID proponents mean by “irreducible complexity” and how do they argue that this concept implies design?
A: Michael Behe, a Discovery Institute fellow, coined the term “irreducible complexity” as a description of organisms that are so complex that they could not come into existence gradually. He uses a mousetrap as an example: a mousetrap has many different parts, and if one of them did not work, you wouldn’t have an inferior mousetrap, rather your mousetrap would not work at all. Therefore, you should assume that the mousetrap must have had a designer. The principal flaw in his argument, which has been repeatedly shown by scientists familiar with evolution, is that no theory of evolution imagines that the complex entity spontaneously appeared. The organism became complex over a long period of time, having undergone gradual transformations. Indeed, Behe’s “irreducible complexity” is a perfect example of the flaw in ID. It sees a complex object, and without understanding how it came into existence, imagines it must have been created spontaneously.

http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pagename=issues_evolution

--------

Remember, ...

"Creation science" is three things:

1) An attack on evolution, offering no evidence for their hypothesis of a designer ("Natural selection is wrong, so we win by default");

2) The old "god of the gaps" strategy of seeking supposedly unanswerable questions, and plugging the gap with a deity ("Gosh, we can't explain this, so there must be a god");

3) A story, such as the creation myth in the book of Genesis ("God said it, I believe it").

"Intelligent design" is not science. Its proponents have never had an article published on the topic in any peer-reviewed scientific journal. They conduct no experiments that would prove or falsify their hypothesis. Their conjecture makes no useful predictions, nor can it be mathematically modeled. There are no research labs doing ID science."

http://www.ffrf.org/news/2005/bushID.php

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posted in Agnostics - 1 reply

New Tribe: New American Independent Party tribe.

Lisa — Mon, 19 Sep 2005 22:28:45 GMT

Dump the Democrats & Republicans!

New American Independent tribe.
http://tribes.tribe.net/NewAmericanIndependent

posted in Agnostics - 0 replies

By way of a greeting

Vic — Tue, 13 Sep 2005 02:37:21 GMT

I just wanted to say hello and that I look forward to reading some new ideas and sharing some of my own. I am agnostic in a limited sense. I do believe there must have been a creator, however, that creator seems to have had little interest in the universe. I can not even say the universe was created with intent. Whether it was created with intent, by accident or as a by product, one thing is for certain, I do not believe that the deity most Americans refer to as "God" is the creator of the universe. That "God" is so clearly a creation of the human mind I often wonder how so many people can believe in it. The answer is in the question though, the "God" is the embodiment of their hopes and fears and is thus made so appealing to them.

I really would like to meet some other agnostics too. Talks about ethics because they are universal, the origin of the universe outside of fairy tales and shaking that ass cuz there aint no reason to feel guilty =)

posted in Agnostics - 0 replies