Agnostic Paradox

topic posted Fri, December 23, 2005 - 7:53 PM by  me
Share/Save/Bookmark
Advertisement
How many of you agnostics are realy agnostic about your agnosticism? Or, put a better way, how many of you think that knowlege is impossible as a symbol is a model for a system, and a model can never completly predict that system becuase it is by neccicity, lacking some of the information and levels of correlation. On the other hand, maybe is really is possible to gain an absolute understanding of the universe. After all, non-locality theory suggests that the whole of the universe exisits within each of its parts. Maybe it is only our current limitations that cause us to think that objective reality can not be percieved. I tend to try to sit on the fence on this one, but I always fall off on the knowlege is an illusion side of things. Anyone else feel me on this one ?
posted by:
me
offline me
SF Bay Area
Advertisement
Advertisement
  • Re: Agnostic Paradox

    Mon, December 26, 2005 - 12:20 PM
    Hmm...well, when I stub my toe it hurts, often badly, and in such a circumstance I will have trouble regarding the awareness of pain, discomfort and/or frustration as "illusionary." Nor do I feel, as my fiance might, that the stubbing of my toe was meant to happen, as if by Fate...I feel the pain of the stubbed toe. I have learned, from humans older than I & who have served as figures of authority, to interpret that pain as a warning ("Prosimity Alert," "Damage Report," etc.). This pain does not seem illusory or misguided...

    And yet, even while I can know that stubbing my toe hurts and that the pain associated with it can be usefully interpreted as a warning, in a specific set of circumstances, can I reasonably put forth an argument that at some imagined time in the future I, or any other person, could know all variables, interpret all information simultaneously, and come up with a "system" that explains everything, that makes all that there is to clarify...clear? Can the answer to the Universe really be "42," as it was in that old sci-fi book? I have my doubts. I sit on the fence, and remain uncertain.

    I don't think knowledge is impossible because I think "knowledge", as a word in English and an idea in philosophy, may be subject to re-interpretation and re-definition over time. What I feel compelled to raise the greatest criticism with are claims of absolute knowledge...
  • Re: Agnostic Paradox

    Thu, December 29, 2005 - 10:25 AM
    I question my agnosticism all the time. I think questioning one's beliefs (or lack thereof) is healthy. To say that knowledge is impossible is not so much a form of agnosticism, but a species of global skepticism. I tend to agree with what Jason said. I've spouted off about this on other threads and I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but I think that traditional concepts of truth and knowledge need to be revised to capture a more neurologically sound picture of the brain's representational activity as a builder of speculative models. As philosophers of science like to say, knowledge is "theory-laden." Rather than knowledge being simply "given" to the brain in some objective theory-neutral observation language, to understand anything, one must have a theory to place the bit of information in. I don't mean a scientific theory per se, but a theory in the sense of some model, it could be any sort of theoretical framework. But as is the nature of models, they are alwasy prone to revision.
    • Re: Agnostic Paradox

      Thu, December 29, 2005 - 6:21 PM
      I question my beliefs, too; it IS healthy. It's also why I don't feel out of place in an Agnostic tribe. Questioning one's beliefs (or lack there of) is a way of reassuring yourself that you are on the path you want to be on - the path that you feel is right, or works for you. Otherwise, whatever you believe (or don't believe) is based on what outside influences pressure you to believe, instead of what you assess to be logical, reasonable, and plausible by your own opinions. This also brings up the illogicalness of evangelization. What is true for you may not be true for others, so why try to convince them it is?
      • Re: Agnostic Paradox

        Fri, December 30, 2005 - 11:31 AM
        Pinky, I agree with most of what you say here but I wonder about this comment:

        <"This also brings up the illogicalness of evangelization. What is true for you may not be true for others, so why try to convince them it is?">

        If you mean religious evangelization, then I agree fully since I think that religion is *usually* made up of bad models that have little contact with anything observable in the world. But the activity of trying to convince people of ideas through argumentation is one of the driving forces of human social and conceptual progress. Where would we be if Copernicus and Galileo had never tried to convince their collegues that current geocentric theories of astronomy were bad models, or if Darwin had never argued that species are mutable and that humans were not divinely created "as is," or if Crick and Watson had never tried to persuade anybody that the basic structure of DNA is a double helix? What if Duchesne had thought "well for me pennicillin kills bacteria, but why try to convince anyone else?"

        I think what you're saying might be based on the (correct) intution that people can become huge pains in the ass when they dogmatically cling to thier own beliefs come what may, but going too far in the other direction leads to an extreme subjective relativism that is self-defeating and potentially harmful to society and intellectual progress.

        What do you think?
        • Re: Agnostic Paradox

          Fri, December 30, 2005 - 1:04 PM
          I couldn’t agree more - I did mean “religious” evangelization. I should have been more specific; I apologize. :)
          • Re: Agnostic Paradox

            Tue, April 18, 2006 - 6:49 PM
            Why pick out the religious? People believe what they believe about whatever and as a consequence believe that people who disagree are wrong. If their being wrong is a concern to you, then it would seem natural to have an interest in changing their minds about it. This happens in politics, academics, just about anything.

            I just don't want anyone to harass me about their beliefs.
    • Re: Agnostic Paradox

      Tue, April 18, 2006 - 6:47 PM
      I agree 100% with every word you wrote there Geoff, and I'm not trying to be obsequious. I don't know how anyone can understand how the senses and brain produces thoughts by interplay with data and still hold to the belief that reality someone leaps into our brains. What we "see" is not some access to the external world but some neural modeling in reaction to sensory stimuli.
  • Re: Agnostic Paradox

    Tue, April 18, 2006 - 6:43 PM
    Well, I don't know if I'd call it agnostic about my agnosticism, but I am agnostic about the idea that it's impossible to know about the existence of God. I'm not one of those "strong" agnostics who think knowledge of such is impossible. Maybe it is. I just don't know, and I don't know if there's a God or not.

Recent topics in "Agnostics"